Customer Documents - TS 16949:2002 Clause 7.2.3.1 Interpretation

[bibo_auto]

Hello Guys!
First of all let me said I think you're great. Only here there are so much information about quality matters and much more.

I would like to ask you one thing about point 7.2.3.1 from TS 16949: 2002.
Even if we are ISO/TS 16949 certified and we have all our related internal documents, sometimes our Customers asks us to use their own documents (i.e 8D report, 5 Whyanalisys, R&R etc).

The reasons for the Customer is point 7.2.3.1 but, as my understandig, this refers only to information connect to logistics and not to others documents: infact in the 16949 speaks about "..in a Customer specified language and format (e.g. computer aided design data, electronic data exchange)".

In other hands I don't understand the utility of a third part certification of our quality system (documents included) that our Customer doesn't recognize.
If the Cistomer needs some kind of documents I think they have to specified their use as a "Customer Specific requirements" and not only ask referring to the point 7.2.3.1.

Anyone as experience on this matter?

Thanks in advance.

Nicola

 

[Jim Wynne]

Re: TS 16949:2002 Clause 7.2.3.1 Interpretation

Hello Guys!
First of all let me said I think you're great. Only here there are so much information about quality matters and much more.

I would like to ask you one thing about point 7.2.3.1 from TS 16949: 2002.
Even if we are ISO/TS 16949 certified and we have all our related internal documents, sometimes our Customers asks us to use their own documents (i.e 8D report, 5 Whyanalisys, R&R etc).

The reasons for the Customer is point 7.2.3.1 but, as my understandig, this refers only to information connect to logistics and not to others documents: infact in the 16949 speaks about "..in a Customer specified language and format (e.g. computer aided design data, electronic data exchange)".

In other hands I don't understand the utility of a third part certification of our quality system (documents included) that our Customer doesn't recognize.
If the Cistomer needs some kind of documents I think they have to specified their use as a "Customer Specific requirements" and not only ask referring to the point 7.2.3.1.

Anyone as experience on this matter?

Thanks in advance.

Nicola

7.2.3.1 refers primarily to electronic data transmission, but it can be broadly interpreted to refer to the "language and format" of other types of documents. If your customer expects you to use their own forms and formats for documents, it should be covered in some kind of explicit documented requirements, however. They shouldn't be allowed to use 7.2.3.1 as a substitute. Note that the clause in question says that the organization must be capable of communicating "...in a customer-specified language and format..." [emphasis added], which means that they must supply a specification for what's expected.

 

[bibo_auto]

Re: TS 16949:2002 Clause 7.2.3.1 Interpretation

Thanks for the answer.

So in this case in which we don't have any requirement nor agreement with our Customer we can use our documents...

 

[Jim Wynne]

Re: TS 16949:2002 Clause 7.2.3.1 Interpretation

Thanks for the answer.

So in this case in which we don't have any requirement nor agreement with our Customer we can use our documents...

In your original post, you indicated that "sometimes" customer ask you to use their forms. If they ask you to use their forms, you should use their forms. If they haven't asked, or specified a particular format, you should feel free to use your own.

 

[zancky]

Re: TS 16949:2002 Clause 7.2.3.1 Interpretation

hi,
from my experience I suppose the main purpose of 7.2.3.1 is to drive supplier to use the same CAD system of his customer. I.e. if Your customer is using Catia, You can tell him that Your CAD system can produce a Catia readable file but it is not true everytime. Therefore You have to buy Catia and design with it. Where I have worked once we have 4 different CAD system due to customers. More or less the same for microsoft office suite etc.
Anyway with German customers You must use their forms too (I have into my Quality System 7 different 8D forms: one is for internal use, one for customer A, even one for internal use when it is used for part of customer XXX, etc; I have declared so in my procedures and everybody are happy, customers and auditors)

 

[bibo_auto]

Re: TS 16949:2002 Clause 7.2.3.1 Interpretation

Thanks Zancky.

So I understood there are differente "interpretation" about point 7.2.3.1 and people are using (expecially Customers) to give it the meaning that they wants (CAD, EDI, 8D etc)...
Even for me this point is refers to a "data" (means CAD data and EDI data) and not on the forms otherwise I can't undestrand why each organization has to develop its own documents: it would be easier to use only the documents from your Customer.
I think that the request to use Customer document has to be discussed in the revision of the contract as a "specific requirement".
If my organization has an identity and a certification, recognized by a third part body certification, with all the documents for the quality system, using others documnets it semme to me that we are loosing our identity...
Perhaps this is only my interpretation of 7.2.3.1 .... What do you think about it?

 

[zancky]

Hi Bibo,
even if we can consider 7.2.3.1 related to electronic data format, supplier must "talk" with the customer into his own language
American companies auditor check how many people actually can speak English, same for German companies, they sent 8d and e-mail in their own language.
Sometime "own language" also means to use the same forms with the same "dictionary" as they can not understand something different. As You are italian (aren't You) can You understand a problem into "vasca-dei-pesci" (english translation is "acquarium") if it is related to a car?
What about customer that ask You to fill forms only by web?
Normally they write which forms You have to use etc into the contract therefore there is nothing you can do.
Therefore my suggestion is to make a collection of all forms into Your system!

good luck

 

[Raffy]

As far as I undertand in the requirement, On our end we ensure that we ask our customer what could be the format of the report that will be sent to them, therefore we sent these reports e.g. txt, rtf, xls, pdf. It depends what could be the specific requirement a customer need.
Raffy