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Customer Property Identification Requirement - ISO 9001 Clause 7.5.4

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Richard Pike

#51
Let's say that our business is taking something received from the customer and somehow "adding value" to it. The things we receive belong to the customer, but thousands of them are received weekly, and our process is such that some small percentage of them are scrapped. The customer is aware of the fallout and has no problem with it. We tell the customer that the standard requires us to report loss of their property, and they tell us that they don't want to be bothered with it. Does the standard require us to annoy the customer? No.
Fallout? Via Inventory Control or via (even annual) Scrap Reports, we would be informing (not annoying) our Customer. Even if this is not done, the "customer is aware" means they were informed and would budget for this even minor scrap allowance. (and that would be recorded) As for "annoying" asking for a petty waiver., that's not annoying? I see your point 100% - mine is that any Auditor who makes an issue out of your scenario should be "politely" corrected. And actually - without laboring the point - the Auditor simply asks the question - if the answer is "i don't know" or "we don't do that" then its the Quality Manager who hasn't thought the requirement through. In my opinion - i reiterate - keeping tabs of property (anybodys) is just sensible business.
 
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R

Richard Pike

#52
Requirements that apply to specifically to them, yes. Many requirements of the standard are not customer specific so to answer your question - No. A customer can not waive all the requirements of the standard.

Let's say you are a company with one customer. That customer does not supply any 'customer supplied materials' or other things such as returnable packaging. Since you have no 'customer supplied materials' it becomes a 'not applicable' requirement. However, the company must address the requirement in some way if only to specifically state in their documentation that there are currently no customers which supply 'customer equipment or supplies or product', but should the situation arise where a customer does supply 'customer equipment or supplies or product' a system to track and manage the 'customer property' will be established and implemented.

The point here is if you have no customers which supply materials or other 'property', how can you set up a system, and provide evidence that the system works?
100% correct - or should i say 105% to allow for scrap? thanks
 
R

Richard Pike

#53
ISO 9001 doesn't specifically mention waivers, but here's what 1.2 does say:
1) 7.5.4 is within clause 7.
2) In the case mentioned by Jim, waiving the reporting requirement (by the customer) doesn't affect the organization's ability to provide product meeting requirements.

It looks like it's allowed to me.
The original purpose (of excluding 7) was to exclude "design". Unless I am mistaken, exclusions, must be agreed with the Registrar and this would be on the original (or amended) Documentation Audit Records - and if so - end of problem. If not - then it would be interesting to see the justification of the Registrar in refusing the exclusion. This of course is the Registrars (not the individual Auditors) decision. Personally I love appraoching the Registrars "officially" for such decisions, but then i have been known for brief interludes with cruelty.
 

Stijloor

Staff member
Super Moderator
#54
The original purpose (of excluding 7) was to exclude "design". Unless I am mistaken, exclusions, must be agreed with the Registrar and this would be on the original (or amended) Documentation Audit Records - and if so - end of problem. If not - then it would be interesting to see the justification of the Registrar in refusing the exclusion. This of course is the Registrars (not the individual Auditors) decision. Personally I love appraoching the Registrars "officially" for such decisions, but then i have been known for brief interludes with cruelty.
Exclusions must be justified in the Quality Manual. During the Stage 1 audit, the auditor will verify that the exclusion(s) is(are) adequately justified.

Stijloor.
 
R

Richard Pike

#55
Exclusions must be justified in the Quality Manual. During the Stage 1 audit, the auditor will verify that the exclusion(s) is(are) adequately justified.

Stijloor.
Stage 1 is what we refer to in this half of the world as a Documentation Audit. And yes you are correct, it is the organizations responsibility to identify exclusions in the quality manual. So we are agreed on both those points.

As with all issues but specifically in terms of exclusions; it is the auditors function to provide their recommendations (supported by their justification) in the Audit Report, but, it is still the Registrars responsibility to accept or reject the auditors recommendation. It is therefore the organizations right to challenge the auditors recommendation and require (not request) the Registrar to justify any decision. And as i am sure you are aware, if the organization is still not satisfied, there are further lines of appeal. Note: I am refering specifically to exclusions as they are part and parcel of the terms and conditions applied in the awarding of any Certification.

Interesting question I heard today - For systems management would you prefer a quality specialist with a little business knowledge or a business specialist with a little quality knowledge.
 
D

DrM2u

#56
The original purpose (of excluding 7) was to exclude "design". Unless I am mistaken, exclusions, must be agreed with the Registrar and this would be on the original (or amended) Documentation Audit Records - and if so - end of problem. If not - then it would be interesting to see the justification of the Registrar in refusing the exclusion.
ISO 9001:2008 allows any applicable exclusion under clause 7. ISO/TS16949 allows only exclusion of 7.3 Product D&D (but not Process D&D) and ISO 13485 allows only exclusion of 7.3 Product D&D; both allow for 'not applicable' clauses only under 7. I am not sure about the other standards based on or derived from ISO 9001. As Richard said, when a clause 7.x is an exclusion or listed as not applicable it shall be justified in the quality manual (see 4.2.a) and the reasons reviewed with the registrar.
 

Stijloor

Staff member
Super Moderator
#57
<snip>Stage 1 is what we refer to in this half of the world as a Documentation Audit.<snip>
Well...not quite.....

Allow me to refresh your "half of the world." ;)

From ISO/IEC 17021:2006(E)

9.2.3.1 Stage 1 audit

9.2.3.1.1 The stage 1 audit shall be performed

a) to audit the client's management system documentation;

b) to evaluate the client's location and site-specific conditions and to undertake discussions with the client's personnel to determine the preparedness for the stage 2 audit;

c) to review the client's status and understanding regarding requirements of the standard, in particular with respect to the identification of key performance or significant aspects, processes, objectives and operation of the management system;

d) to collect necessary information regarding the scope of the management system, processes and location(s) of the client, and related statutory and regulatory aspects and compliance (e.g. quality, environmental, legal aspects of the client's operation, associated risks, etc.);

e) to review the allocation of resources for stage 2 audit and agree with the client on the details of the stage 2 audit;

f) to provide a focus for planning the stage 2 audit by gaining a sufficient understanding of the client's management system and site operations in the context of possible significant aspects;

g) to evaluate if the internal audits and management review are being planned and performed, and that the level of implementation of the management system substantiates that the client is ready for the stage 2 audit.

For most management systems, it is recommended that at least part of the stage 1 audit be carried out at the client's premises in order to achieve the objectives stated above.

9.2.3.1.2 Stage 1 audit findings shall be documented and communicated to the client, including identification of any areas of concern that could be classified as nonconformity during the stage 2 audit.

9.2.3.1.3 In determining the interval between stage 1 and stage 2 audits, consideration shall be given to the needs of the client to resolve areas of concern identified during the stage 1 audit. The certification body may
also need to revise its arrangements for stage 2.
So, it's a little more that just a "documentation audit."

Hopefully this helps.

Stijloor.
 
J

Jan T

#58
:truce:
I think we have gone around the bend from the original post. We are an electroplater and as such everything we get from a customer is "customer property". This is identified using their part number, lot number P.O. number etc. in our documentation system.

For customer supplied guages or micrometers, all of our customers have already identified their property with etched numbers or names etc. We do not put any permanent marks on their tooling. These are traceable to their calibration cycles and they recall and reissue when required.

Regards
Jan
 
Last edited by a moderator:
#59
Stage 1 is what we refer to in this half of the world as a Documentation Audit.
It may be called that, but if you're referring to an accredited CB which subscribes to the IAF, then the Stage 1 audit is much, much more than a simple desk top review of documentation. FWIW - this is a reversion back to the early days of CB operations in the UK, when the audit was a two stage affair, generally speaking.
 
R

Richard Pike

#60
Well...not quite.....

Allow me to refresh your "half of the world." ;)

From ISO/IEC 17021:2006(E)



So, it's a little more that just a "documentation audit."

Hopefully this helps.

Stijloor.
Yep- you are correct with regard to ISO 17021 -Sorry thought we were referring to ISO 9001.
 
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