GURU SDI

Involved In Discussions
#1
Dear All,

Recently i had an audit with my New German Customer..He wanted us to follow VDA 6.3 for their initial audit & supplier Evaluation.These requirements are confusing me. But my company is certified with ISO/TS 16949. can any one explain this VDA requirements & help me how to prepare for the audit..I also request to post any files redarding this & latest edition of VDA 6.3
 

Howard Atkins

Forum Administrator
Staff member
Admin
#2
Re: Customer request VDA 6.3 as well as TS

Dear All,

Recently i had an audit with my New German Customer..He wanted us to follow VDA 6.3 for their initial audit & supplier Evaluation.These requirements are confusing me. But my company is certified with ISO/TS 16949. can any one explain this VDA requirements & help me how to prepare for the audit..I also request to post any files redarding this & latest edition of VDA 6.3
The standard VDA 6.3 is the standard for process audits and as such fits into the TS standard as a customer specific requirement.
VDA 6.1 is the system standard which TS is accepted as an alternative.
Please search the forum for VDA 6.3 and you will find information

If this German customer is VW they have their own version of the audit which should be available. Formel-Q-Capability ask for a copy
 

GURU SDI

Involved In Discussions
#3
Re: Customer request VDA 6.3 as well as TS

Thank you Howard Atkins.

Our customer is VW only. How to get the latest edition of VDA 6.3

who are all (OEM's) involved in releasing these standards?

so is it possible to map to the requirements mentioned in the VDA 6.3 to ISO/TS 16949 procedures to some extent.
 
#4
Re: Customer request VDA 6.3 as well as TS

As Howard stated get hold of the Formula Q - Capability but get hold of all the Formula Q documents - Contract (Koncrete) and Integral if you supply VW they are on the web in the VW B2B site.
The Formual Q - Capability has additions to VDA 6.3 and includes all the supply chain; audits will be requested that access your Tier 2, Tier 3 etc as they look to assure the suppliers also.
Watch the auditor requirements as both the Formal Q and VDA 6.3 has a mandatory requirement that all your auditors have to be certificated to VDA 6.3. there appears to be a WW shortage of training courses and exam verification the places may be limited and you cannot just apply, a CV or summary business history that meets the acceptance critera is also required.
 

Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
#5
Re: Customer request VDA 6.3 as well as TS 16969

Can we get an update on this topic? I have a US client who is certified to TS-16949. They were informed by ZF that they were required to implement VDA 6.3, even though they are in the US. Is this a unique situation, or becoming a new customer requirement? Has anyone else been receiving these demands?
 
#6
Re: Customer request VDA 6.3 as well as TS 16969

It is not unique and it is not becoming a new customer requirement, it has always been required.
Throughout the ISO/TS 16949 wording on meeting or achieving customer requirements is stated. The most draconian clause being the dreaded 5.2.
German automotive customers require compliance to VDA and have always done so. An certificating body will audit during ISO/TS certificate and surveillance audits compliance to VDA if you are selling to a customer who has this as a requirement.
You have to plan for both System and Process concurrently for both ISO/TS and VDA. There is some relief as many of the Systems are the same and a good equivalency matrix assists in creating one Quality System that satisfies all requirements.
This though will not satisfy the requirements to have certificated VDA6.3 Process Audits completed. The choice can be then there business case to train internal resources or expense with certified external resources.

You will have to set up to satisfy those VDA requirements of the customer unless you can successfully get them to waiver requirements and allow alternatives

Lawrie
 
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Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
#7
Re: Customer request VDA 6.3 as well as TS 16969

It is not unique and it is not becoming a new customer requirement, it has always been required.
Throughout the ISO/TS 16949 wording on meeting or achieving customer requirements is stated. The most draconian clause being the dreaded 5.2.
German automotive customers require compliance to VDA and have always done so. An certificating body will audit during ISO/TS certificate and surveillance audits compliance to VDA if you are selling to a customer who has this as a requirement.
You have to plan for both System and Process concurrently for both ISO/TS and VDA. There is some relief as many of the Systems are the same and a good equivalency matrix assists in creating one Quality System that satisfies all requirements.
This though will not satisfy the requirements to have certificated VDA6.3 Process Audits completed. The choice can be then there business case to train internal resources or expense with certified external resources.

You will have to set up to satisfy those VDA requirements of the customer unless you can successfully get them to waiver requirements and allow alternatives

Lawrie
I am well aware that it has been a requirement in Europe, and is not new, but I have not seen this requested of my clients in USA, when they were supplying USA based customers. Even a few years ago when I audited for the USA office of DQS, this had not come up. So, my question is, are any USA based suppliers being asked to comply with the system of VDA 6.3?
 

lk2012

Inactive Registered Visitor
#8
Is your customer insisting on VDA in the US a German OEM? German OEM's (Continental, VW group, BMW group, Siemens, Bosch...) usually insist on each and every one of their sites following VDA.
 

Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
#9
Is your customer insisting on VDA in the US a German OEM? German OEM's (Continental, VW group, BMW group, Siemens, Bosch...) usually insist on each and every one of their sites following VDA.
My client is a tier2 American plant, with a German parent company. Their customer is also a tier2 American division with a German parent company. The OE customers in this story are all OE's - all the Detroit and German OE's.

I just did an onsite visit with them to review this issue, and have a clearer understanding. They were not being asked to certify to VDA (which would not make sense), but rather, the customer performed a customer audit using VDA 6.3. That makes more sense.

However, the customer sprung this on my client. They are certified to TS-16949, in good standing, with pretty good performance. certainly above average. The customer just walked in, took out VDA 6.3, and starting firing questions!

NOTE: If you are a supply chain auditor, and this is your tactic, IT IS WRONG! Your supplier is not certified to VDA. They were not asked to review this audit scheme. You don't just spring it on them, and then rake them over the coals. You might as well audit them to the Russian Nuclear Standards...! They can't be held liable for something they have not even implemented.

So, now, instead of us doing a planned review of VDA 6.3, identifying items to add to the QMS, and doing an orderly implementation, we are doing it backwards, via corrective actions!

This is the wrong approach, counter=productive, disruptive and costly. If you want your suppliers to implement things, inform them, and give them time to implement it in an orderly manner. You are violating the very intent of ISO/TS with this approach!
 

Howard Atkins

Forum Administrator
Staff member
Admin
#10
To be clear

VDA 6.3 is not a certifiable standard

It is a process audit as required by TS in 8.2.2.2 Manufacturing process audit , which is defined in a better way than the TS standard.

Just as the US companies have mandated LPAs, German companies are mandating VDA 6.3

The next stage will be mandating VDA 6.5 for TS 8.2.2.3 Product audit as this is also not clear from the standard.
 

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