Customer's Interpretation vs. TS16949 clause 7.4.1.2 Supplier Development Requirement

What do you think of TS16949?

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Q

qualitytrec

#11
That is my understanding also. I was/am trying to gather info to try to reason with my customer. We are a six person facility and all the consultants we have spoken with along with our "registrar to be" has said that our company is small enough that TS would be a burden for us and our customer should reconsider. Which by the way they are. They are still pushing ISO 9000:2000 which is fine but still a little bit of a burden for us.
 
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R

ralphsulser

#12
Marksmith
Good news if your customer let you get to ISO 9001:2000 rather than TS16949:2002. A few less "shalls" for your efforts.
Good luck
 
B

billhass

#13
My two cents for what it's worth

We are a very small company, I could only wish for eight people. It’s just the owner and me, so I can sympathize with your position Mark. Our company was just recommended for TS certification last Thursday.

Our auditor confirmed Mark’s statement, “If your customer requires certification to TS you must comply.” Ours did and we are now “recommended” for certification.

I look at TS as ISO on steroids. If ISO is a burden, TS is only a slightly larger burden. In my book it would be worth taking on the additional burden to present your company as a TS certified company. If you are in the automotive market this breaks down some of the barriers to becoming a supplier to larger entities.

Regarding the discussion concerning your suppliers be ISO certified, quote from Dirk,

“"Unless otherwise specified by they customer [your customer], suppliers [you] to the organization shall be third party registered to ISO 9001:2000 by an accredited third-party certification body."

Luckily our auditor did not linger on this subject… Our suppliers had no rejected materials or corrective actions, so I think this was a plus. Had he lingered I would have presented the question, “Since we are achieving the goal of TS wouldn’t we be the customer that could specify a supplier (to us) not be registered to ISO 9001:2000?”

An example given to the auditor would be: If I have a supplier that has met all of my requirements, had no incidents of non conforming material, premium freight, etc. etc. Is that supplier not meeting my guidelines for an approved supplier? I understand he/she needs to conform to ISO, and achieving ISO 9001/2000 is the goal, but should he/she be disqualified as a supplier because that goal has not been met? To my recollection the standard would like a timeframe, but no limitations are required of the timeframe. Is ten, twenty years acceptable??

Look forward to the valuable insight people more qualified than I will add to this opinion.
 
M

Mustang

#14
I really like your argument, unfortunately, they defined some terms in TS that change your interpretation a bit (see pg. 2 in the Standard)

Supplier - Your Suppliers
Organization - You ("refers to the unit to which this international standard applies")
Customer - Your customer

we got burned for having a single supplier who is not certified to ISO. The bad thing is, they are very specialized in what they do, so they know they have their customers over a barrel (they flat refuse to even consider going ISO). We have been trying to get a waiver from our customer, but you know how that goes...
 
Q

qualitytrec

#15
Come on Mustang,
Crack that whip :whip: .
Don't you have any control over your suppliers. :biglaugh: :lmao: This is where TS goes to far IMO. My customer is the one who gets to make the decisions about my suppliers. And usually they do not not make a decision so we are stuck with the requirement even if a supplier has the power to refuse. It is evil. :mad:
Mark

Oh, Mustang I thank you for pointing out the defs so I do not have to type them out.
 
M

Mustang

#16
Yeah, in an ideal world, you would think our customers wouldn't care where we got stuff from, as long as it met their specifications. A girl can dream...

It's a wonder any small manufacturers are still in business.
 
B

billhass

#18
One last question

I agree with your definitions and my point can easily be disputed, but one more question. (Just in case it bites us in the posterior in the future)

If the 1st step is conformity to ISO 9001:2000, isn’t that the first step for “our” suppliers too? If this is the case is there a time frame for achieving certification? Sorry I don’t have the standard in front of me, lucky enough to have a day off after the whole process.
 
Q

qualitytrec

#19
billhass said:
I agree with your definitions and my point can easily be disputed, but one more question. (Just in case it bites us in the posterior in the future)

If the 1st step is conformity to ISO 9001:2000, isn’t that the first step for “our” suppliers too? If this is the case is there a time frame for achieving certification? Sorry I don’t have the standard in front of me, lucky enough to have a day off after the whole process.
I am in the middle of the same thing and from what I have gathered here at the Cove and from my own investigation, there should at the very least be a plan in place (which has been defined as a timeline by my customer) for registering by the companies that supply to you, and what you are going to do to help develop your suppliers and bring them to compliance.
Not sure if this is right but it is where everything I have heard seems to be pointing.
Mark
 
M

Mustang

#20
Yep, it's a pretty slippery slope, until you reach the end of the line (I don't think God needs to be ISO, at least, not yet!)

Also, if you are TS (as opposed to simply ISO) your suppliers MUST be ISO9001:2000, conformity is not permitted. (see Note 2 on page 19 under 7.4.1) unless otherwise specified by your customer, of course. So I guess, everyone is allowed to go 2 tiers back, because if your customer can dictate your supplier, you can dictate your supplier's supplier, etc.

I have to stop, my brain is getting overheated...
 
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