Dangerous Act - Auditor says major nonconformance for safety (risk) issue

E

engr.post

#11
apologies to OP (orig. poster) if moved on.

Hand grinders are safe, not dangerous and don't cause whole industries to be unsafe.

First, I'm an advocate of health and safety at work. I've walked the talk. There is not 'but' coming.

PGTIPS8 I'm troubled your argument may be using an extreme example to undermine the points. From handle-less ported grinders, to dangerous, to authority has a right to, to a large workforce and company behaving unsafely and stopping altogether. That's a big snowball and I don't accept it's valid. There may be reasons for you using it though? Is it exasperation? Is it because of apparent UK H&S ferment?

A number of others (posts in this thread including yours) have explicitly or implicitly mentioned that a body needs to have a right to. So, we have mentioned ideas like scope of audit, the mgmt systems concerned, regulations etc. In my first post I was implicit in mentioning the right of the skilled/experienced to their ways. Briefly (incorrectly put) to their hand-eye skilled coordination during grinding operations.

Many people are restricted from employing their skills by other people. I'm aware of criticisms and ridicule of the Health and Safety Executive in the UK. However, we cannot lay blame solely there, part of those negatives are the reactions of people affected. They are restricted from doing.

I hope we'll support (together) extreme caution in overly prescriptive and proscriptive doctrines. And with legislation, let us ask is it that specific, does it mention grinders, what is meant and in clause (e.g. ...modification of equipment...)?

Trying to insist handle-less grinders are dangerous is a red-herring and a dangerous route to better health and safety.

best
 
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John Broomfield

Staff member
Super Moderator
#12
While undergoing a stage 1 audit, the Auditor stated before entering the workshop that if he spotted any operator using an angle grinder without a side handle it would be an immediate Major Non Conformance. Our risk assessments state two handed operation but do not specify handle to be fitted. Would I would be interested in the opinion of the forum members if they have experienced this or a similar situation.
Graruss,

To avoid unwanted auditor opinions ask where the requirement is stated.

Make it clear that you are looking for conformity or nonconformity and that his or her opinions are not supported by the documented audit objective.

If you do want advice from your auditor (perhaps to reduce the amount of auditing!) then add that requirement for advice to the documented audit objective.

Those advisory audits should not be valid for certification.

John
 
P

PGTIPS8

#13
Sorry the snowball was valid, due to experiance in my industry this year. However users do have inherent skills and knowledge, the handless grinders are SAFE in a skilled and educated hand. However mistreatment, inappropriate modification, misuse and disregard for the safety risk process is the cause here not the grinders. But the stop was put on use of grinders as a result of disregard for regulations and safety rules. Modification includes any change in the equipment which is outside that originally supplied, modification for use wityhout original suppliers permission and assessment, including any on the job adhoc modification such as using a wheel larger than the machine was designed for. So although as an engineer my self of 40 yrs standing, some still think they know what they are doing when they use equipment, but sometimes they don't know the risk or the legislative and regulatory requirements as they may think.Thats why we have such things as the PUWER regs to keep people safe.
 
E

engr.post

#14
However mistreatment, inappropriate modification, misuse and disregard for the safety risk process...
Agree with you.

...stop was put on use of grinders as a result of disregard for regulations and safety rules
Disagree (not with it happening, I accept it did), but with stopping their use by calling authority of the regs and 'rules'.

...some still think they know what they are doing when they use equipment, but sometimes they don't know the risk or the legislative and regulatory requirements
I agree people can be overly confident.

...Thats why we have such things as the PUWER regs to keep people safe.
Yes and no.

Are we agreed the OP was unncessarily hampered but this auditor's assertion? I don't accept an interpretation that unscrewing the handle on a small 6" angle grinder and using it comes under the purview of the modifications clause. We need to see the warning from the manufacturer and even then we can buy one that allows for removal?
 
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P

PotentCompoundSafety

#15
I also agree that this is beyond the scope of the audit. What the auditor should be doing is to look for what system gaps are present that allow this to occur. It is more than likely that this is not the first time for this occurrence.
 
S

samsung

#16
I also agree that this is beyond the scope of the audit. What the auditor should be doing is to look for what system gaps are present that allow this to occur.
Can you please clarify what's beyond the scope of audit? If you are referring to the original post, then per your own assertion (bold text) it does fall within the scope of audit.

It is more than likely that this is not the first time for this occurrence.
The matter relates to stage 1 audit so it's presumed that the auditor hasn't visited the premises before. However, it's likely that the auditor might have observed the occurrence during the desktop review of internal audits/ CARs or so.
 
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somashekar

Staff member
Super Moderator
#17
Thank you to all who replied. To clarify the audit was a stage 1
BS OHSAS 18001.
Have you gone through the stage 2 by now ... ?
I guess you have to give due importance to the auditor's stage 1 note as said in your opening post. Apart from considerations given in your work instructions for the two hand operations, you are required to go beyond and address other typical behaviour of operators. The types and ways how accidents and injury have occured from grinding process is too vast and one must hear experiences from people who have faced them.
 
G

Graruss

#18
Last week the organisation underwent the stage 2 BS OHSAS18001 audit. After a 4 day audit we have been recommended for certification. Thank you to all who contributed to this thread.
 
S

samsung

#19
Last week the organisation underwent the stage 2 BS OHSAS18001 audit. After a 4 day audit we have been recommended for certification. Thank you to all who contributed to this thread.
CONGRATULATIONS for being recommended for OHSAS certification. Keep visiting the forum.
 
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