Dealing with a defiant Operations Manager

SteelMaiden

Super Moderator
Super Moderator
#11
Voice of experience says: "Case is not playing when they say their suppliers must be ISO 9001 registered."

:lmao:Without Case, I wouldn't be where I am today. And, there is nothing wrong with that. But, if your boss thinks he can dodge this, he needs to rethink his position unless you are the only supplier in the world that can provide your product.

Going over anyone's head is not a pleasant thing to have to contemplate. Just make sure that you document everything you tell this person, and make sure that you are reporting your progress accurately and frequently so when push comes to shove you can show that you are doing your part, but not getting the cooperation you've asked for. Good luck.
 
Elsmar Forum Sponsor
Z

Zenzi09

#12
It could be a combination of all those factors.
When I started the ISO project consisted of the QMS Manual that an outside consultant had put together. All the job records were logged into 5 different excel spreadsheets. Delivery slips were hand written, routers did not exist, work instructions did not exist, no log of maintenance or calibration records, never been any supplier, managerial, or employee reviews. Personnel paper records were made for all current employees, but no formal training, or even employee sign off was issued.
Basically the only thing in place was the QMS manual.

My understanding is that he lost steam because he ran into a dilemma of the product moving through the shop to fast for paperwork to keep up. Especially since everything was hand written, or manually entered into a spreadsheet.
For case, we receive about 40 tractor axles a day, they build the axles across town and freight over roughly 4-5 loads a day with between 6-10 axles a load. We are allotted roughly 2-3hrs to turn around each load inniating work immediatly upon receival, and ship them out directly to the FARGO plant that builds the tractors.
The biggest hurdle to overcome was being able to generate some sort of traveler to follow the product around the shop without hindering production to much. I've presented a few ideas the first being the most obvious, a paper router for every axle.

This was immediately rejected as creating more paper that is just going to be shoved in a corner. So I've since revised to a day log for each station where they log the ID # of the axle and sign off that they did their job, the log sheet is then to be turned into the office at the end of the day for processing the following morning. So technically the quality paperwork will take 24hours to catch up to the product.

This is where I am at now, when I presented him with my new idea of validating our work his only response was, "This is bullsh*t".

That is but one example, I have also ran into walls with him saying, "How are we suppose to write out 30 years of painting experience." and "Lets just put on a good show for their quality guys."

Basically, I feel it is just a mentality that they have done things a certain way for 30 years, and the production staff is not competant enough to certify their work. It must be something that he ran into during his time at least, because the op. manager has only worked for this company 3 more years then I have, not quite long enough to harbor a mentality that the company is stuck in its old ways.

For the record, he is still the management rep. and I've kind of fallen more into the title of IT specialist for the company.

Any alternatives to management reviews are welcome, maybe it can help get the ball rolling.
 

Wes Bucey

Quite Involved in Discussions
#13
Just a few observations:

  1. I echo the belief CASE will absolutely drop the hammer. The only way it can be avoided is if CASE sends its own auditors and they bless your shop (but if you aren't compliant with ISO Standard for an effective Quality Management System, they'll torpedo your shop in a heartbeat.)
  2. I suspect the so-called "consultant" was in reality a wannabe who merely word-processed some generic quality documents for your boss who thought he'd automatically qualify for registration because he had "documentation." (shades of "registration in 40 days!:mg:)
  3. Whoever put you in charge may not have realized it, but he was setting you up to fail big time - you don't have authority to compel adherence and you don't have experience to persuade adherence to what can be a relatively simple format for a company in your industry.
  4. All other Cove posters will be correct when they say the first guy who has to face reality is the owner. The problem is he probably thinks of himself as a "big picture" kind of guy who leaves details to the "little people." He has to start understanding the consequences of his lackadaisical attitude, but if you push it, he'd probably shoot the messenger [fire you.]

Bottom line:
The real problem in the equation is the owner/boss, not the Operations Manager, who is just playing CYA with an owner he is familiar with.

:topic:
A lot of real consultants are available to help your boss see reality and help him and all of the staff shape up to be able pass a registration audit (maybe with a few minor NC and one or more OFI), which would keep CASE from dropping the hammer at the end of the year if the organization is making substantial progress toward achieving registration. The cost of such a consultant, while it could be substantial, is certainly less than the loss of profit from a major customer. It could conceivably be done by December 31, but it is imperative the process begins in earnest as soon as possible.

There is a thread which explores the characteristics of a real consultant versus a wannabe (Consulting – Is it in YOUR Career Future?) If your owner/boss read through that thread, he might recognize the shortcomings of the person he originally hired as a "consultant." With that recognition, he might consider a new consultant to help groom you and the organization - you to be an effective Management Representative and your organization to be an effective, profitable company registered to and compliant with ISO 9001.

We'd be happy here in the COVE to outline search criteria for selecting a competent, compatible consultant, just ask!
 

Cari Spears

Super Moderator
Staff member
Super Moderator
#14
Any alternatives to management reviews are welcome, maybe it can help get the ball rolling.
I meant that you can conduct management review without actually having a sit-in-a-room-with-everyone- meeting. There are a couple of threads around here related to alternatives to meetings that accomplish the management review. Let me do a little searching.
 
Z

Zenzi09

#15
Looks like the bottom line is I need to get the owner more involved in the implementation of ISO, without overshadowing the Op. Manager, and maybe see just how far our consultant can help with training.
It appears to be a legitable ISO specialist/consultant, but a big part of the problem is that IMSM is based out of London, and we might have to wait months at a time for a scheduled visit.
 

Jen Kirley

Quality and Auditing Expert
Staff member
Admin
#16
Given:
  • The top guys being unwilling to play active, willing roles in this implementation - and one of them being managemenr Rep; and
  • The owner believing it's all for show and CASE is making a scare tactic anyway, and
  • Your limited leel of authority,
I honestly do not see much more you can do.
 
Z

Zenzi09

#17
That is what I most feared, as I would really like to acquire ISO certification as there are many, "dumb" mistakes we make as a company that could be easier to prevent if the processes were implemented and maintained.
 

Wes Bucey

Quite Involved in Discussions
#18
That is what I most feared, as I would really like to acquire ISO certification as there are many, "dumb" mistakes we make as a company that could be easier to prevent if the processes were implemented and maintained.
OK. Here's a wild shot that may work (no promises and the downside is you could get fired for being "too intrusive.")

Catch the top boss alone and say exactly that (in red).

Follow up with, "I've found a website with a lot of professional quality people who have realistic and practical views on how to implement and achieve registration to ISO 9001 so that it adds value to our operation, not just mumbo jumbo that costs us money."

"Why not take a look through some of the threads and even ask some of your own questions? If you agree, maybe we can start fresh and make this whole thing work to our advantage."

As I say, no promises, but Jennifer's comment says it all
I honestly do not see much more you can do.
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#19
Another thing to note that my manger's boss(the owner) who has little do do with operations other then talking with customers, is telling CASE, and all our other customers that I(I being me not him) am working on ISO and will have us compliaent and certified by the end of the year; making this projects sucess my liability.

I imagine I am not the only one who has hit this kind of problem, and I was wondering if anyone has some helpful hints that I could try to get my boss on board with this and start implementing my last years worth of work?
The phrase "constancy of purpose" springs to mind. Your boss and his boss want something different from what you're trying to give them. You want an effective quality system; they want a certificate in order to satisfy what they feel is a customer's unreasonable demand. You have two choices: try to convince them that they're wrong (and good luck with that) or give them what they want.
 

Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
#20
That is what I most feared, as I would really like to acquire ISO certification as there are many, "dumb" mistakes we make as a company that could be easier to prevent if the processes were implemented and maintained.
You are in a difficult situation. If someone works for a company where ownership chooses to make dumb (or, foolish, unwise, uninformed...pick a word you like...) decisions, you are in a no win situation. It's like a bad marriage. You might be able to fix it, but it won't be enjoyable unless you do. And, it takes 2 to make the decision to do good things.
 
Thread starter Similar threads Forum Replies Date
G Dealing with non conformity caused by Supplier Components detected in the production line IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 14
K Tips for dealing with third party auditors General Auditing Discussions 11
Q Dealing with a forgetful Special Processor AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 13
C Specification + MU - Dealing with reported MU Values Measurement Uncertainty (MU) 6
F Dealing with, and Analysis of, Data Statistical Analysis Tools, Techniques and SPC 6
R Dealing with Device/Design changes by a "Letter to File" vs. 60601 Retesting IEC 60601 - Medical Electrical Equipment Safety Standards Series 10
Sidney Vianna Cleaning up the Global Compact: Dealing with Corporate Free Riders Sustainability, Green Initiatives and Ecology 2
J Integrated Management System - Anyone with experience dealing with ISOQAR? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 2
R Transforming or not Transforming - Dealing with Non-Normal Data Statistical Analysis Tools, Techniques and SPC 10
G Dealing with Excessive Within-Part Variation when doing MSA and Cpk studies Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 3
S Auditing Career: Dealing with Mentally Unstable Managers Career and Occupation Discussions 7
K Has anyone had experience dealing with SEDEX (Supplier Ethical Data Exchange)? Customer and Company Specific Requirements 4
P Hard Milling Process - Dealing with Within Part Variation for SPC Statistical Analysis Tools, Techniques and SPC 18
optomist1 Real World SPC Dealing with Outliers Statistical Analysis Tools, Techniques and SPC 22
P Advice on dealing with difficult Colleagues Career and Occupation Discussions 24
R Effects of Dealing with Out of Tolerance Monitoring Equipment General Measurement Device and Calibration Topics 4
ScottK Are any other USA manufacturers dealing a lot with ARRA requests? Various Other Specifications, Standards, and related Requirements 6
N Nissim Shaked is dealing with these topics at his desk Imported Legacy Blogs 14
D Dealing With a Chinese Supplier to follow up on quality problems Quality Manager and Management Related Issues 26
D Dealing with pesky telemarketers Coffee Break and Water Cooler Discussions 4
B Dealing with Outsourced Processes in a DMR ISO 13485:2016 - Medical Device Quality Management Systems 7
Marc Government of Mozambique - Dealing with Lions Funny Stuff - Jokes and Humour 14
P Dealing with Second Party Audits Quality Manager and Management Related Issues 6
R Service Company dealing with FAI requirements - Small stocklist broker AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 8
A Is zero defects possible? We are dealing with 25 to 30 parameters Quality Tools, Improvement and Analysis 21
Marc Advisory Notices - Who is responsible for dealing with Advisory Notices? ISO 13485:2016 - Medical Device Quality Management Systems 7
S Process of dealing with the Customer - PRRs, GQTS Nonconformance and Corrective Action 5
samer Oracle computer records - Special procedure for dealing with non-paper Records? Records and Data - Quality, Legal and Other Evidence 2
A Capability Analysis - Dealing with non-normal data in Minitab Using Minitab Software 8
Douglas E. Purdy Dealing with Procurement Documentation and an Industry Conglomerate General Auditing Discussions 4
P Dealing with recruiters: What if a job is listed after.... Career and Occupation Discussions 17
P Recently Certified!! One minor finding dealing with Dock Audits IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 11
T Industrial Belt Sander Systems - Dealing with chatter marks Manufacturing and Related Processes 5
B Dealing with dishonest customers - One customer who is a supplier - Bad Material Supplier Quality Assurance and other Supplier Issues 16
A Dealing with Possible Alcohol Use by Employees in the Work Place Misc. Quality Assurance and Business Systems Related Topics 23
B Published standards dealing with calibration of pressure and vacuum gauges? General Measurement Device and Calibration Topics 5
B AOS Assembly Operations Sheet Inquiry Manufacturing and Related Processes 0
S Critical characteristic on manufacturing operations test procedure Inspection, Prints (Drawings), Testing, Sampling and Related Topics 0
C Gobys for operations documentation plan Oil and Gas Industry Standards and Regulations 4
A ISO 41001:2018 - Clause No.8 Operations Part Quality Management System (QMS) Manuals 2
T Why do most companies have Quality reporting to Engineering or Operations and not to CEO? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 45
F Job Travelers questions - unsigned operations AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 41
P Drug packaging / filling operations Pharmaceuticals (21 CFR Part 210, 21 CFR Part 211 and related Regulations) 8
Jane's You may or may not have the same person managing Operations and QA ISO 13485:2016 - Medical Device Quality Management Systems 18
P Secondary packaging operations in medical device facility Manufacturing and Related Processes 1
M How Organizations maintain Six Sigma and TQM in their Operations ISO 13485:2016 - Medical Device Quality Management Systems 6
T SPC in Insurance Back Office Operations Service Industry Specific Topics 4
N ISO 9001 Quality Manual for an O&M (Operations and Maintenance) Company ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 14
I Bracketing for Validation - Processes that share some unitary operations Qualification and Validation (including 21 CFR Part 11) 4
WCHorn Are Inspection Operations Value Added? Lean in Manufacturing and Service Industries 50

Similar threads

Top Bottom