Defects and Systems - Zero Defects and its proponents, Poka Yoke, etc.

D

Don Winton

#1
Defects and Systems

-------Snip-------
Subject: Defects and Systems
Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 03:32:10 -0500 (EST)
Resent-From: [email protected]
Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 14:03:22 -0600
From: [email protected] (Barry Schwartz)
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected] (DEN list)

This posting relates to several recent threads, such as Zero Defects and its proponents, Poka Yoke, etc.

I do not have experience either teaching or implementing Deming "philosophy" in an organizational context, and perhaps that gives me an advantage in evaluating the relations between Defects and Systems.

For me Donald Wheeler's distinction between "the voice of the customer" and "the voice of the process" is "intuitive".

When I buy an item I want it to have zero defects, in that I want it to meet all its specifications so that I can "know" what I have bought. It is admirable of organizations if they can provide me with such conforming goods.

But it is not _all_ that I want of a manufacturer, retailer, service organization, etc. I want the product to work _better_ than its specification. I want the specification to represent what I "know" about the product, that which I am willing to admit is within the capabilities of the product, but this does not set a limit on what I would _like_ from the product. If two products both conform to the same specifications, but B is nevertheless _better_ than A, then I want B.

But moreover I want a manufacturer, retailer, service organization, etc., to _surprise_ me. I do not want to always know ahead of time what my world has in store for me tomorrow. I am not a big fanatic of electronic gadgets; it is especially in service that I want to be surprised, or in door hinges, or in shockingly low prices, or in unexpected applications, or whatnot.

And I don't know what else.

It seems to me that the only clear statement that comes out of my "mouth" here, as a customer, is that I want the product to conform to its specification, but on top of that there is unsaid or vaguely said an array of expectations that have very little to do with specifications. A manufacturer, retailer, service organization, etc., to "win" must satisfy these expectations. The presence or absence of defects is simply easier to verbalize, _not more important_ than other aspects.

And perhaps there is a simplifying framework in which "meeting specifications" comes about as a consequence of meeting my expectations in general. Maybe Shewhart, Deming, Wheeler, etc., formulated such a framework.

Deming, in particular, seems to have emphasized that the organization should _exist_ to do more than what is easy to verbalize, such as "meet specifications", "make a yearly profit", etc. Again, maybe it helps that I am not a manager or consultant. I can see that I want more than that out of a human life -- that to me a person should do more than live up to prior expectations, that no one should live solely to maximize his or her monetary profit, etc. Not being associated with running a corporation, I can afford to say that I don't want corporations to exist, in general, if that's to be "all" that they are to be about. If corporations aren't to be more than that, then maybe we should eliminate them from our society rather than figure out how to make them more efficient. They are, after all, creations of convention, and in principle we can change the conventions. But even then we would have to fill the void with _some_ kind of communal "being". I do not object in general to meeting expectations, making profits, etc., _personally or communally_, but I do object to having these as _personal or communal_ life aims.

I do not believe I am that unusual in expecting "more" out of life than meeting goals, making profits, etc. I'm not politically radical, and I have money in stocks and bonds and so forth, and I want my money to grow, etc., but some things are just easier to say than others. I suspect that there is a widespread unvoiced expectation that organizations should do more than meet specifications, make profits, etc. They should help make the world a better place in which to live, for otherwise why bother having them?

Does much in the way of "public relations" and exist to give the _impression_ that a company makes the world a better place? If so, then does this present evidence that people besides me want the "real thing"?

Etc.

Barry Schwartz
Pioneer Software Development, Inc.
work: [email protected]
home: [email protected]
-------End Snip-------

Comments, anyone.

Regards,
Don
 
Elsmar Forum Sponsor

Kevin Mader

One of THE Original Covers!
Staff member
Admin
#3
Don,

I saw this while browsing the DEN. My initial thoughts centered about this statement made by Barry Schwartz.

Barry states: "It seems to me that the only clear statement that comes out of my "mouth" here, as a customer, is that I want the product to conform to its specification, but on top of that there is unsaid or vaguely said an array of expectations that have very little to do with specifications. A manufacturer, retailer, service organization, etc., to "win" must satisfy these expectations. The presence or absence of defects is simply easier to verbalize, _not more important_ than other aspects."

The verbiage used by Barry still leaves me a bit confused so my intpretation may be inaccurate, but the conclusion I arrive to is that he isn't easily pleased. Building to specifications, in this case, speaks to the product requirements as determined by Marketing. If Marketing creates an innovative design concept, then how can the Customer know in advance what the specifications are? They can't. Meeting requirements is not enough, especially in the future of an organization. This is driving by the review mirror and what Deming warns against. While Barry may be very satisfied with a product, what keeps him loyal to the manufacturer? I ask this understanding that a satisfied customer is not a loyal customer, one who will return every time to buy from you (the one you have delighted by exceeding the expectations). While many organizations live comfortably off the innovation of other organizations, do they contribute anything more? Perhaps their only contribution is to keep the leader in the industry...innovative. These are the folks who do not live to specifications, they create and define them.

As for defining Quality...I agree with you. The whole definition thing grows tediously mundane in the industry (perhaps QS program documentation is to blame here). Let each define it for themself.

As I have read here many times, defining Quality, which Guru's QS to deploy, or "which" is better than "what" should be left to the individual. The input of anyone, gurus or Cove contributors, should be weighed against the options and the situation. Enough of my ramble.

Back to the group...
 
D

Don Winton

#4
Building to specifications, in this case, speaks to the product requirements as determined by Marketing. If Marketing creates an innovative design concept, then how can the Customer know in advance what the specifications are?
Kevin,

I could not agree more. When someone speaks about ‘building to specifications’ just bring up software as the subject. What are the specifications for Windows 98 and is it up to specs?

I bring this up, not a criticism of Windows, just to make a point, which is:

...is that I want the product to conform to its specification, but on top of that there is unsaid or vaguely said an array of expectations that have very little to do with specifications.
What specification? What expectations? Are the bugs (many so far I have seen) part of the specification? Is 5% of code acceptable as 'nonconforming?

Let each define it for themselves.
I preach this over and over. Can any one single model fulfill the ‘one size fits all’ paradigm. I think not. You hit the nail on the head.

The input of anyone, gurus or Cove contributors, should be weighed against the options and the situation.
I have said it over and over, as you well know. Do not read what people said they said, read what they said. Then decide what is appropriate.

Regards,
Don
 
D

Don Winton

#5
“There Is Nothing Worse Than a Sharp Image of a Fuzzy Concept.”

Ansel Adams

Marc,

That question always gives me angst. I generally try to sum it up something like this: What the customer needs when he needs it, every time. But even that is subjective. Note I stated NEEDS, not WANTS. He wants a toaster, but he needs a toaster that works as expected, has a long functional life and give him value (more toaster for the buck sorta thing), etc.

He WANTS a car, but NEEDS personal, reliable transportation.
He WANTS medical treatment, but he NEEDS diagnosis and possibly cured.
He WANTS a cell phone, but he NEEDS portable, reliable communication.
He WANTS a new ignition module for an ’89 Ford Tempo, but he NEEDS a fully functional one (personal example. ARGHHHHHHHH!).

And so on. Sorta like the symptom/problem thing. That is part of the reason I try to stay away from the generic definitions offered by the popular press and gurus for the classes I give. I ask the attendees to offer their definitions and I try to illustrate a case example based upon their inputs. But one thing I personally believe is definite: Quality is defined by the customer, regardless of the product.

This ‘definition’ thing is also part of the reasoning for me (as yourself, I believe) trying to use a systems and process approach in a Quality Management System. Defining quality as inspection to specifications is, IMHO, silly. Measuring 5 out of every 100 widgets and issuing a ‘declaration’ (read C of C) the product is ‘quality’ is waste. I think I have mentioned this before, but here I go again:

Quality is not inspection. Quality is not customer surveys. Quality is not conformance to requirements. Quality is not ‘The totality of features….” Quality is not having control charts posted at inspection stations and declaring the process controlled. Quality is not a registration stamp issued by some third party. Quality is not having employees meeting the third Thursday of every other month except on a full moon and holidays and calling it a Quality Circle. Quality is not mass training in statistical techniques. Quality is all of these and quality is none of these.

Just the ramblings of an old wizard warrior.

Regards,
Don
 
W

waberens

#6
"Let each define it for themselves."

Kevin & Don,

Maybe I'm still too new to these ideas, 5 months in "quality", but is it that subjective? As I read and listen to you & others that are veterans in this field it seems that things get fuzzier. Is there not an objective to put before managment, employees, customers, suppliers, and ourselves that we can strive for? Quality and excellance is something to strive for, even as we at times settle for less. I know there is alot of good things being done by folks posting to these boards, but sometimes these heavy discussions are almost depressing. They do make me think about the issues though, even if I don't post often. I appreciate the big picture discussions as well as the more focused forum.

Now I'm rambling. Just want to know there is something to grasp a hold of in quality.

Bill
 
D

Don Winton

#7
Good points, Kevin, to which I can only offer the following:

…but is it that subjective?
Yes, it is. Granted some concepts are universal, but most are subjective. Statistical concepts are universal. How these concepts need to be applied are subjective. ‘Quality’ is a moving target and customer focused. It is defined by the customer and developed by an organization to meet or exceed the customer’s needs.

As I read and listen to you & others that are veterans in this field it seems that things get fuzzier.
As stated above, there is nothing worse than a sharp image of a fuzzy concept. Everyone (including myself) thinks they know what ‘quality’ is, but when asked to actually define it and apply that definition, things get murky (including myself). I equate it to ‘pushing a rope.’ It can be done, but not easily. BTW, do not equate ‘veterans’ with ‘experts.’ As for myself, I am NOT an expert, just a humble practitioner.

Is there not an objective to put before managment, employees, customers, suppliers, and ourselves that we can strive for?
Yes. It is defined by you and your organization based on customer’s needs. The point I try to make is that any single model is probably less than appropriate. ISO 900x, in and of itself, is as stated in the document; a quality ‘model.’ No more, no less. Does an ISO 900x system mean quality product? Does it mean increased efficiency? Increased profit? Increased customer satisfaction? Or QS 9000 for that matter. Or Deming, Crosby, Slater, Juran or the host of others. I think they all would be the first to admit that the system must be right for the organization, they are all just ‘models.’ Your objective may be ‘Zero Defects’ (I know Kevin, but I had to have some example). That is fine. Now, you strive for Zero Defects. But, HOW you achieve this is up to you. Your objective may be ISO900x, QS 9000, or whatever. The same thing goes, it is up to you how.

Before implementing any Quality Management System, questions of this type must be asked and answered. What is your ‘objective?’ A company’s first priority is to stay in business. It does this by making money. It makes money by selling product and reducing waste. It sells product by defining, supplying and pleasing customers. It pleases customers by giving them what they need. It reduces waste by defining areas of potential improvement and improving them, continuously. For example, Crosby’s ‘conformance to requirements’ concept. Whose requirements? Satisfy just yours and the customer may not be pleased. Satisfy just the customer’s and shareholders may not be pleased. Satisfy both yours and your customer’s and most will probably be pleased.

They do make me think about the issues though…
Good. I like to think that if I can get someone to think about these types of things, then that, at least, is something.

Just want to know there is something to grasp a hold of in quality.
Of all the things I could have put here, I thought of this.

“Those who enter the quality field must be open of mind and fiery of spirit, for the task before you is immense.”

Regards,
Don
 
B

Batman

#8
The Internet is not vast enough to describe "Quality." I think you folks did a terrific job putting a chip in the mountain called "Quality." I like to think "Quality" is doing the right thing at the right time. Getting there is half the fun. Press on...
 

Kevin Mader

One of THE Original Covers!
Staff member
Admin
#9
Bill,

You ask a very good question for being in the field for such a short time. What is the aim of an organization regarding Quality?

First, what follows is my opinion, so careful reading. I project a bunch here.

I would suggest reading Out of the Crisis by W. Edwards Deming. Just reading through chapter three will give you great insight to your question: "Is there not an objective to put before managment, employees, customers, suppliers, and ourselves that we can strive for?". Remember as you read, this is one guru's opinion and may not suit all your needs. I think you will find several objectives listed within Deming's 14 Points and 7 Deadly Sins. IMHO, these are the best set of objectives, but they aren't the only ones.

But don't stop there. Keep reading. Read on other gurus (Juran, Crosby, Fiegenbaum, Taguchi, Iami are favorites of mine) and perhaps a few of the folks the gurus warn against (Drucker come to mind). This helps to keep you objective when making your decision on how you want to perceive "Quality". Quality is what you make of it. Borrow from what you learn, invent how you recognize Quality. Keep in mind that this may differ from how an organization, perhaps even your own, views Quality. In these circumstances, you need to find a way to work the organizational agenda while working your own.

What can you grasp a hold of in Quality? Well, everyone wants it at some level. Can you ever know the limits? I don't think so, but that is where the 'subjectivity' of Quality is born. It is also what I find that drives me. Trying to find perfection, the perfect Quality solution, not really concerned if I ever really find it or not. My guess: I won't. It is in the journey, at least for me.

Now Quality as an organizational aim. Who defines this in your organization? The president? The Quality Manager? The Customer does. So how many Customers does your organization have (subjectivity)? Are their needs all the same? The trick it trying to determine the key driving forces that your Customers find important. What satisfies your Customer? Price, conformance to specifications, meeting expectations? What makes your Customers loyal to you (going beyond expectations)? What you find today maybe different tomorrow. Don't worry. That's job security of a sort. Quality constantly evolves, so that is why definitions are inaccurate, even at the vaguest levels. They deal with what we already now today, not what the future holds.

Well now. That was kind of refreshing for me. Time to turn it over to the group. Perhaps this is the topic to bring you out into the forum more regularly?

Back to the group...
 
Thread starter Similar threads Forum Replies Date
A AQL - How to count samples with defects for each defect class AQL - Acceptable Quality Level 17
B IATF 16949 Cl. 8.6.6 - Acceptance Criteria - Zero Defects Attribute Data Sampling IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 2
J Validating a stopped test due to never finding any defects Inspection, Prints (Drawings), Testing, Sampling and Related Topics 2
Q PPM - Filtering Defects out of calculation Quality Tools, Improvement and Analysis 5
S Determining sample size for inspection to achieve x% confidence re defects Misc. Quality Assurance and Business Systems Related Topics 10
R Classification of Major & Minor Defects AQL - Acceptable Quality Level 10
S Understanding, Analysis and Monitoring Quality Defects on Composite Components Statistical Analysis Tools, Techniques and SPC 3
K Is there any specific Standard on visual defects for extrusion and machined parts ? Quality Tools, Improvement and Analysis 6
P What are the causes of painting defects? Manufacturing and Related Processes 2
T Repeated Inspection - Probability of Visual Inspection catching Defects Inspection, Prints (Drawings), Testing, Sampling and Related Topics 2
T How many complaints, defects and non-conformances are typical? Customer Complaints 5
P Monitoring Production Defects - Three simple questions Six Sigma 3
S Are P-charts for a Particular Defect or can Different Defects be counted in one? Statistical Analysis Tools, Techniques and SPC 2
E Post Machining Casting Defects with MIL-STD-2175 Requirements - Responsibility Manufacturing and Related Processes 9
L What is the Cpk for Zero Defects Six Sigma 4
S Allowed Faults (Defects) on Plastic Parts Inspection, Prints (Drawings), Testing, Sampling and Related Topics 6
G Sample Size for 2900 ppm Visual Defects Inspection Requirement Inspection, Prints (Drawings), Testing, Sampling and Related Topics 4
T 10 CFR Part 21 - Reporting of Defects and Noncompliance Various Other Specifications, Standards, and related Requirements 6
Crusader "Defects" Visual Aid: To Control or To Not Control? Document Control Systems, Procedures, Forms and Templates 8
I Integrated Management System - Nonconforming Service/Product Defects ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 4
T Supplier Spray Process Audit - Fish Eye, Spray Dust and Fiber Dust Defects Manufacturing and Related Processes 8
I Cpk < 1.33 - How do I estimate actual defects? Statistical Analysis Tools, Techniques and SPC 7
R Suppliers Defects found during Production Process - Supplier Scorecards Quality Tools, Improvement and Analysis 6
N Causes of Disbond Defects in Composites Manufacturing Process Manufacturing and Related Processes 7
S Aluminum Castings Defects - Welding and what to Mark with Manufacturing and Related Processes 3
optomist1 DPM (Defects per Million) vs. DPMO (Defects per Million Opportunities) Capability, Accuracy and Stability - Processes, Machines, etc. 4
T Calculation of Sigma Level of Defects for a Manufacturing Process Statistical Analysis Tools, Techniques and SPC 8
Ron Rompen Looking for counter for my inspector to tally the number of defects discovered Manufacturing and Related Processes 3
B Tracking Defects - Help with Graphing Culprits from CAR's Quality Manager and Management Related Issues 6
B Effectiveness of 200% Visual Inspection to Identify Defects and Defectives Inspection, Prints (Drawings), Testing, Sampling and Related Topics 32
M AQL (Acceptable Quality Level) for Zero Defects AQL - Acceptable Quality Level 13
V Calculating Sigma Quality Level - Defects are more than evaluations Quality Tools, Improvement and Analysis 1
T Measuring Quality Performance of Distributors - Product defects Supplier Quality Assurance and other Supplier Issues 2
Chennaiite High Technology Visual Inspection for Casting and Forging Parts - Zero Defects Inspection, Prints (Drawings), Testing, Sampling and Related Topics 11
A Customer Quality Complaint - Visual Defects from cut-to-length shear Manufacturing and Related Processes 8
L Zoned Defect Chart - 9 zones with 12 possible defects Inspection, Prints (Drawings), Testing, Sampling and Related Topics 2
gard2372 Concentration Diagram of Product - Plotted defects over a picture of one of our parts Statistical Analysis Tools, Techniques and SPC 7
B Emirates Slams Airbus on A380 Defects World News 0
R Acceptance criteria for visual defects of electronic components Inspection, Prints (Drawings), Testing, Sampling and Related Topics 4
T Running a DOE when defects are < 50 PPM Quality Tools, Improvement and Analysis 8
quality1 ABS Plastic Molding Defects list wanted Manufacturing and Related Processes 10
L What Standard Applies to This? Feature (or defects) not depicted on the print Inspection, Prints (Drawings), Testing, Sampling and Related Topics 5
I Sampling Plans for Critical Defects Inspection, Prints (Drawings), Testing, Sampling and Related Topics 1
T DPMO (defects per million opportunities) - Key word being OPPORTUNITIES Six Sigma 9
H Does internal ppm include defects produced while adjusting the machine? Records and Data - Quality, Legal and Other Evidence 22
R Steel Casting defects - Again - Pressure Test Failure Manufacturing and Related Processes 10
M Applying AQL when 0 defects are acceptable AQL - Acceptable Quality Level 9
R Steel Casting Defects (Cold Shut) - Expert Advice needed Manufacturing and Related Processes 16
pammesue Supplier Scorecard Metrics - Supplier PPM Quality Defects Supplier Quality Assurance and other Supplier Issues 12
M Cosmetic defects on chrome plating - Chrome plating visual standards Manufacturing and Related Processes 6

Similar threads

Top Bottom