Newsgroups: misc.industry.quality
Subject: Re: Statistical Hypothesis Testing
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 01:33:56 GMT
Greetings John,
You said:
> If you have the time could you
> indicate roughly what
> Deming's main objections were?
Deming said: "The student should avoid passages in books that treat confidence intervals and tests of significance, as such calculations have no application in analytic problems in science and industry." (W. Edwards Deming, Out of the Crisis, page 639.)
Deming was advocating a doctrine, still current among statistical/management gurus, that distinguishes between analytic methods and enumerative methods. I can't make sense of it myself, even though I have tried. Advocates of that doctrine classify statistical hypothesis testing as an enumerative method - the kiss of death. I consider the analytic versus enumerative thing to be a false dichotomy.
Also in "Out of the Crisis", Deming said: "Analysis of variance, t- test, confidence intervals, and other statistical techniques taught in the books, however interesting, are inappropriate because they bury the information contained in the order of production." (W. Edwards Deming, Out of the Crisis, page 132.)
Lastly, in "Out of the Crisis", Deming said: "... But a confidence interval has no operational meaning for prediction, hence provides no degree of belief in planning." (W. Edwards Deming, Out of the Crisis, page 132.)
I can't refrain from writing one last quote, this one from Ernest Hemingway: "In order to be a great writer a person must have a built- in, shockproof crap detector.
Sincerely, Stan Hilliard
=============
In article xxxx,
"John Duffus" wrote:
> This is very interesting. If you have the time could you indicate roughly
> what Deming's main objections were? What did he propose in it's place?
> I can see that it could be misused if the user does not have a clear idea of
> the difference between statistical significance and practical
> significance,or how to gather the data, but that is not the fault of the the
> technique.
> Regards
> John Duffus
> shilliard wrote
> > Greetings Kelly,
> >
> > You said:
> >
> > > Not many other engineers use
> > > this tool and I wonder why not.
> > > Is it that it is not a well-known
> > > technique or is it that it is
> > > just not well understood.
> >
> > Hypothesis testing was widely used up to about 20 years ago. Then along
> > came W Edwards Deming to tell the world to stop. So they stopped.
> >
> > I am an engineer, retired after a long career using and teaching
> > applied statistical methods. I believe that hypothesis test methods are
> > too important to engineering work to be left to the statisticians. I am
> > so inspired by the power of hypothesis testing and its derivative tools
> > for engineering, manufacturing, process improvement, and quality
> > assurance that I have continued working on my own niche, which you can
> > see at
> >
> > www.samplingplans.com
> >
> > I have seen a dumbing down of hypothesis testing education and
> > practices over the last 20 years. It started with the attack on
> > hypothesis testing and its derivative methods by W Edwards Deming and
> > his followers. I think that the situation can be turned around if
> > engineers learn to view hypothesis testing as an engineering method -
> > rather than an import from "statistics". A person well grounded in the
> > engineering heuristics paradigm can make much more successful use of
> > hypothesis testing in his/her work than a statistician can.
> >
> > Sincerely, Stan Hilliard
> > CQE,CQA,CRE,PE
> >
> > ===========
> > In article xxx,
> > "Kelly Speiser" wrote:
> > > I am an avid user of statistical hypothesis testing for helping me to make
> > > decisions in quality. I use it for deciding if a corrective action worked,
> > > should I recalculate control limits on a process (or not), examining the
> > > differences between processes, vendors and much much more. I think
> > it's
> > > great and have written a book about it.
> > >
> > > Not many other engineers use this tool and I wonder why not. Is it that it
> > > is not a well-known technique or is it that it is just not well understood.
> > > I'd like to hear from those that use it and those that don't use it and
> > > their reasons.
> > >
> > > Thanks for the discussion.
> > > --
> > > K. S. Speiser
Subject: Re: Statistical Hypothesis Testing
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 01:33:56 GMT
Greetings John,
You said:
> If you have the time could you
> indicate roughly what
> Deming's main objections were?
Deming said: "The student should avoid passages in books that treat confidence intervals and tests of significance, as such calculations have no application in analytic problems in science and industry." (W. Edwards Deming, Out of the Crisis, page 639.)
Deming was advocating a doctrine, still current among statistical/management gurus, that distinguishes between analytic methods and enumerative methods. I can't make sense of it myself, even though I have tried. Advocates of that doctrine classify statistical hypothesis testing as an enumerative method - the kiss of death. I consider the analytic versus enumerative thing to be a false dichotomy.
Also in "Out of the Crisis", Deming said: "Analysis of variance, t- test, confidence intervals, and other statistical techniques taught in the books, however interesting, are inappropriate because they bury the information contained in the order of production." (W. Edwards Deming, Out of the Crisis, page 132.)
Lastly, in "Out of the Crisis", Deming said: "... But a confidence interval has no operational meaning for prediction, hence provides no degree of belief in planning." (W. Edwards Deming, Out of the Crisis, page 132.)
I can't refrain from writing one last quote, this one from Ernest Hemingway: "In order to be a great writer a person must have a built- in, shockproof crap detector.
Sincerely, Stan Hilliard
=============
In article xxxx,
"John Duffus" wrote:
> This is very interesting. If you have the time could you indicate roughly
> what Deming's main objections were? What did he propose in it's place?
> I can see that it could be misused if the user does not have a clear idea of
> the difference between statistical significance and practical
> significance,or how to gather the data, but that is not the fault of the the
> technique.
> Regards
> John Duffus
> shilliard wrote
> > Greetings Kelly,
> >
> > You said:
> >
> > > Not many other engineers use
> > > this tool and I wonder why not.
> > > Is it that it is not a well-known
> > > technique or is it that it is
> > > just not well understood.
> >
> > Hypothesis testing was widely used up to about 20 years ago. Then along
> > came W Edwards Deming to tell the world to stop. So they stopped.
> >
> > I am an engineer, retired after a long career using and teaching
> > applied statistical methods. I believe that hypothesis test methods are
> > too important to engineering work to be left to the statisticians. I am
> > so inspired by the power of hypothesis testing and its derivative tools
> > for engineering, manufacturing, process improvement, and quality
> > assurance that I have continued working on my own niche, which you can
> > see at
> >
> > www.samplingplans.com
> >
> > I have seen a dumbing down of hypothesis testing education and
> > practices over the last 20 years. It started with the attack on
> > hypothesis testing and its derivative methods by W Edwards Deming and
> > his followers. I think that the situation can be turned around if
> > engineers learn to view hypothesis testing as an engineering method -
> > rather than an import from "statistics". A person well grounded in the
> > engineering heuristics paradigm can make much more successful use of
> > hypothesis testing in his/her work than a statistician can.
> >
> > Sincerely, Stan Hilliard
> > CQE,CQA,CRE,PE
> >
> > ===========
> > In article xxx,
> > "Kelly Speiser" wrote:
> > > I am an avid user of statistical hypothesis testing for helping me to make
> > > decisions in quality. I use it for deciding if a corrective action worked,
> > > should I recalculate control limits on a process (or not), examining the
> > > differences between processes, vendors and much much more. I think
> > it's
> > > great and have written a book about it.
> > >
> > > Not many other engineers use this tool and I wonder why not. Is it that it
> > > is not a well-known technique or is it that it is just not well understood.
> > > I'd like to hear from those that use it and those that don't use it and
> > > their reasons.
> > >
> > > Thanks for the discussion.
> > > --
> > > K. S. Speiser