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Deming's SoPK (System of Profound Knowledge) Discussion

Mike S.

An Early 'Cover'
Trusted
One thought that hit me today as I was going about my work: Juran created a tool in his Quality Control Handbook that many Q practitioners, Industrial Engineers, Statisticians, etc. use as a reference quite often (I do). It is pretty much accepted as the "bible" of the profession. He also wrote several other books on Q subjects, one of which I read years ago (but forget the title) and has over the years been recognized as one of the greats of the field.

So, I wonder why there are no "Juranites"?-- he doesn't seem to have the rabid followers like Deming. Or am I wrong?

Can anyone summarize what, if any, major differences in philosophy there were between the two?
 

WALLACE

Quite Involved in Discussions
Juran and others

Mike,
If the ideas and interpretations of Juran, Deming, Crosby and, Covers like yourself, Wes Busey, Kevin Mader "et Moi" and many others, who may be more knowledgeable contribute to this thread with all of their ideas and interpretations, contribute to "systems thinking", I'm all for it. :agree:
Wallace.
 
Mike S. said:
One thought that hit me today as I was going about my work: Juran created a tool in his Quality Control Handbook that many Q practitioners, Industrial Engineers, Statisticians, etc. use as a reference quite often (I do). It is pretty much accepted as the "bible" of the profession. He also wrote several other books on Q subjects, one of which I read years ago (but forget the title) and has over the years been recognized as one of the greats of the field.

So, I wonder why there are no "Juranites"?-- he doesn't seem to have the rabid followers like Deming. Or am I wrong?

Can anyone summarize what, if any, major differences in philosophy there were between the two?
Here's an excerpt from a review of a book on Juran which appeared in Quality Press
Juran by John Butman
. . .
A Juran biography is especially welcome because he has not, until now, been as well-known as other quality figures
. . .
One of the most fascinating aspects of biographies is the pinpointing of those fateful -- and often minor -- incidents that end up playing a major role in a person's life. Juran had many of those moments. One was his failure to aggressively pursue a role in the PBS television report that launched quality and W. Edwards Deming into the business mainstream. As a result, Juran, who played at least as large a role as Deming in the quality movement, never received the same degree of attention.

Another interesting facet of the book lies in the many hints of competitiveness and professional jealousy that exist between the lines. Even the great successes enjoyed by Juran, Deming, Crosby, Drucker and other leading thinkers do not seem large enough to overcome the petty tiffs and minor slights they suffer at each others' hands.

Juran (John Wiley & Sons, $29.95)
Full review at http://www.qualitydigest.com/oct97/html/books.htm
Always interesting stuff. Rob Nix or Kevin Mader, of course, may have this book on their own shelves - maybe they can add some insight beyond this.
 
R

Rob Nix

Good thread starter Mike! :agree1:

Two things led to Deming's rise to fame, that did not happen to Juran; 1) his success in helping Japan's industrial turn around, e.g. 1950: Japan = cheap, now: Toyota is #2 automaker ahead of Ford, and 2) his public rise to fame in 1980 with the NBC Whitepaper "If Japan Can... Why Can't We?", where he used such memorable terms as "instant pudding" and "[most problems are] unknown and unknowable".

Still Deming gave a lot of credit to Juran for his contribution to promoting Quality methods in America.

Juran's Quality [Control] Handbook HAS become THE desk reference for most Quality Managers. I still use it frequently. However, my favorite book of Juran's (when I worked in production facilities) was "Quality Planning and Analysis".
 
R

ralphsulser

Rob Nix said:
Good thread starter Mike! :agree1:
Juran's Quality [Control] Handbook HAS become THE desk reference for most Quality Managers. I still use it frequently. However, my favorite book of Juran's (when I worked in production facilities) was "Quality Planning and Analysis".
This is a correct observation. I started working in Quality in 1966, and taking ASQ(C) courses then also. At that time Juran was known as the "Father of Quality Control". Ths first thing we were told was to get Juran's Quality Quality Control Handbook. I still have it. I have used it extensively over the years, took it with me to the CQE exam. In 1974 I was fortunate enough to spend a week with Dr. Juran as part of a training program for all the Budd Co. quality managers. I later met again with Dr. Juran in 1994 at the ASQ convention in Las Vegas. Juran did not get or seek as much publicity as Demming, and I would not want to detract from Demming's accomplishments. At least he got the focus on much needed quality improvement efforts.
 
ralphsulser said:
This is a correct observation. I started working in Quality in 1966, and taking ASQ(C) courses then also. At that time Juran was known as the "Father of Quality Control". Ths first thing we were told was to get Juran's Quality Quality Control Handbook. I still have it. I have used it extensively over the years, took it with me to the CQE exam. In 1974 I was fortunate enough to spend a week with Dr. Juran as part of a training program for all the Budd Co. quality managers. I later met again with Dr. Juran in 1994 at the ASQ convention in Las Vegas. Juran did not get or seek as much publicity as Demming, and I would not want to detract from Demming's accomplishments. At least he got the focus on much needed quality improvement efforts.
:applause: Excellent observations by Ralph and Rob.
Rightly or wrongly, I think of Deming as a "concept" guy and Juran as a "nuts and bolts" guy.

Part of the religious fervor attributed to Demingites is attributable to the feeling of Zeitgeist which permeated all his public seminars and workshops. A large part is attributable to the fact attendees "self-selected" themselves looking for some "breakthough" in their careers (lives?)

Juran folks were much more pragmatic - "OK. What do I do and how do I do it? Don't waste my time with philosophy, I have too much work to do."
(Webster's 1913 Edition)
Definition: \Zeit"geist`\, n. [G.; zeit time + geist spirit. See
{Tide}, n.; {Ghost}, n.]
The spirit of the time; the general intellectual and moral
state or temper characteristic of any period of time.
 

Kevin Mader

One of THE Original Covers!
Staff member
Admin
Dave,

I removed the PDF of Myron's paper as the DEN and Myron have explicitly asked that this not be done. However, I would encourage folks who read this thread and wonder what the link was for to visit the DEN to read it there. It is a terrific paper as most of Myron's works are. It should also be noted that those who were engaged with the links to Education, Myron has written extensively on this topic and has in fact, dedicated the remainder of his life working on this important subject.

Regards,

Kevin
 
D

David Hartman

Kevin Mader said:
Dave,

I removed the PDF of Myron's paper as the DEN and Myron have explicitly asked that this not be done. However, I would encourage folks who read this thread and wonder what the link was for to visit the DEN to read it there. It is a terrific paper as most of Myron's works are. It should also be noted that those who were engaged with the links to Education, Myron has written extensively on this topic and has in fact, dedicated the remainder of his life working on this important subject.

Regards,

Kevin
Well it's nice to know that after 51 years I am still receptive to new knowledge. Thanks Kevin, I was not aware of the DEN's limits on this - and now I know.
:cool: :thanx:

I too hope that others will take an opportunity to visit the DEN, there really is a wealth of knowledge there - and more importantly some of it is actually information on the "how - to" of applying SoPK (the type of info that Mike has been requesting).
 
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