Deming's SoPK (System of Profound Knowledge) Discussion

D

David Hartman

Wes Bucey said:
Juran folks were much more pragmatic - "OK. What do I do and how do I do it? Don't waste my time with philosophy, I have too much work to do."
I discovered many years ago that my learning style is such that learning the "how to do it" information is not nearly as important for me as learning the "why it works that way".

Although you really can't use the "why" information without knowing and understanding the "how" information (which is where Mike is coming from with his queries for examples of Deming's philosophies in use).

I too believe that a pairing of Deming and Juran (perhaps with a sprinkle of Crosby - after all I was an ITT employee for quite a few years :rolleyes: ) seems to cover the bases quite well.
 
Elsmar Forum Sponsor

Kevin Mader

One of THE Original Covers!
Staff member
Admin
I think that there is an important blend with Deming's philosophies and Juran's applications. I agree with you folks here that the influences of both men and other contemporaries is important. I started with Fiegenbaum, moved to Juran, and settled with Deming. Nonetheless, all have had a profound affect on me and I use their guidance in an intertwined effort.

Again in the National Archives, these men exchanged many letters and recognized each others contributions, personally and professionally just as Drucker and Deming had.

Kevin
 

Mike S.

Happy to be Alive
Trusted Information Resource
Kevin Mader said:
Dave,

I removed the PDF of Myron's paper as the DEN and Myron have explicitly asked that this not be done. However, I would encourage folks who read this thread and wonder what the link was for to visit the DEN to read it there. Regards,

Kevin
Okay, help a dummy here. What's the DEN? And why can't a paper from there be posted here if credit is given?
 

Mike S.

Happy to be Alive
Trusted Information Resource
Mike S. said:
Okay, help a dummy here. What's the DEN? And why can't a paper from there be posted here if credit is given?
Never mind -- I found it.

So I did a quick scan through a few pages and found this:

The following is excerpted from Chapter 4 of The New Economics, second edition by W. Edwards Deming.

The first step is transformation of the individual. This transformation is discontinuous. It comes from understanding of the system of profound knowledge. The individual, transformed, will perceive new meaning to his life, to events, to numbers, to interactions between people.


A manager of people needs to understand that all people are different. This is not ranking people. He needs to understand that the performance of anyone is governed largely by the system that he works in, the responsibility of management. A psychologist that possesses even a crude understanding of variation as will be learned in the experiment with the Red Beads (Ch. 7) could no longer participate in refinement of a plan for ranking people.

Thr first quote almost sounds like it could have come from a new-age guru espousing a new religion. Or is it just me?

The second quote is just too broad and absolute for my taste. Or, maybe not... Hey, I'm as good a home-run hitter as Sammy Sosa, it's just that I've been in a bad system! And I'm as brilliant as Stephen Hawking -- it's just that I've been in a bad system! Okay, so I'm being a bit sarcastic. But how many folks here really believe that in their daily lives that they DO NOT work and interact with people who are better than others at a given task outside of any differences in the system they work in? In other words, the differences between Jane's ability to make 50 widgets in an hour vs. Joe's ability to make 30 in an hour means there is always a systemic fault, not differences between their internal talents, abilities, and motivations? To believe Deming's assertion goes aganist a lifetime of real-life experiences. One thing for sure, I don't want Deming as my advisor on draft-day for my favorite sports team -- but I'd be okay if he worked for the Yankees! :lol:
 
C

Craig H.

Mike S. said:
Never mind -- I found it.

So I did a quick scan through a few pages and found this:

The following is excerpted from Chapter 4 of The New Economics, second edition by W. Edwards Deming.

The first step is transformation of the individual. This transformation is discontinuous. It comes from understanding of the system of profound knowledge. The individual, transformed, will perceive new meaning to his life, to events, to numbers, to interactions between people.


A manager of people needs to understand that all people are different. This is not ranking people. He needs to understand that the performance of anyone is governed largely by the system that he works in, the responsibility of management. A psychologist that possesses even a crude understanding of variation as will be learned in the experiment with the Red Beads (Ch. 7) could no longer participate in refinement of a plan for ranking people.

But how many folks here really believe that in their daily lives that they DO NOT work and interact with people who are better than others at a given task outside of any differences in the system they work in? In other words, the differences between Jane's ability to make 50 widgets in an hour vs. Joe's ability to make 30 in an hour means there is always a systemic fault, not differences between their internal talents, abilities, and motivations? To believe Deming's assertion goes aganist a lifetime of real-life experiences. One thing for sure, I don't want Deming as my advisor on draft-day for my favorite sports team -- but I'd be okay if he worked for the Yankees! :lol:
Ok, Mike, I see your point. One thing that I don't recall seeing much in Q literature, or business literature for that matter, is just what you do with the""Joes" of the world. To take your sports analogy a little further, what makes a great coach?

Well, I would say that motivation is an obvious factor, but even when motivating all of the players to do their best there will be variation. IMO, one of the least talked about abilities of good coaches is how they can look at the abilities (and lack thereof) of each of the players, and match the game plan to the players ' abilities. In a way, this is true in business as well. We all have strengths and weaknesses. A good manager will work to play to their employees' strengths and protect them from their weaknesses.

I don't know that Deming ever really put it quite like this (he may have even thought it was so much drivel), but maybe the strategy I mentioned above could be part of "the system"?

Craig
 
Last edited by a moderator:

WALLACE

Quite Involved in Discussions
Mike S. said:
Thr first quote almost sounds like it could have come from a new-age guru espousing a new religion. Or is it just me?
Nope, It's not just you,
It does sound rather evangelistic to me too.
Deming was a deeply religious man and, it's my guess that he aligned much of his understandings and interpretations of profound knowledge on his cultural and religious beliefs. I'm certainly not trying to throw bricks at this possibility yet, when Deming was in Japan assisting in their so called economical recovery, profound knowledge was spoken of, interpreted and focused more so as systems thinking and building.
Wallace.
 

Wes Bucey

Quite Involved in Discussions
Mike S. said:
The first step is transformation of the individual. This transformation is discontinuous. It comes from understanding of the system of profound knowledge. The individual, transformed, will perceive new meaning to his life, to events, to numbers, to interactions between people.

A manager of people needs to understand that all people are different. This is not ranking people. He needs to understand that the performance of anyone is governed largely by the system that he works in, the responsibility of management. A psychologist that possesses even a crude understanding of variation as will be learned in the experiment with the Red Beads (Ch. 7) could no longer participate in refinement of a plan for ranking people.
For the ones who did not have the perspicacity to look up the Deming Electonic Network (http://deming.eng.clemson.edu/pub/den/)

Paragraph 1: "transformed, etc." Yeah! For some, the realization is like an Epiphany (a meeting with the Creator.) Does that mean it will happen for everyone? Nope. Does the fact 'everyone will NOT be transformed' invalidate the concept of System of Profound Knowledge? Nope. If you, personally, do NOT get transformed, does that make you a bad person? Nope. Just different. Which goes to the heart of - - -

Paragraph 2: "variation . . . Red Beads . . . no longer . . . ranking people."
Some real life examples of changing systems to accommodate variation in people:
all vehicle drivers are not equally adept at shifting gears - organization gets vehicles with automatic transmissions
all employees are not right-handed - organization adjusts work layout to accommodate either-handedness
In other words, the differences between Jane's ability to make 50 widgets in an hour vs. Joe's ability to make 30 in an hour means there is always a systemic fault, not differences between their internal talents, abilities, and motivations?
Is there some factor in the system which favors Jane over Joe? What if there are more Joes than Janes in the employment pool? Does it make sense to create a system to make uniform high rate of widgets, despite individual variation among employees? Is the end goal to have a pool of Janes or to get widgets out the door?
:topic: Did you ever witness or participate in the Red Bead experiment, Mike?
 

Kevin Mader

One of THE Original Covers!
Staff member
Admin
Is 50 more than 30? Sort of a trick question when asking a statistician, which Dr. Deming was. If both numbers are within the upper and lower control limits of a stable process, the answer is no. Wes is right: The Red Bead Experiment demonstrates why this is.

Back to the group...
 

Wes Bucey

Quite Involved in Discussions
Anyone curious about the Red Bead Experiment?

Kevin Mader said:
Is 50 more than 30? Sort of a trick question when asking a statistician, which Dr. Deming was. If both numbers are within the upper and lower control limits of a stable process, the answer is no. Wes is right: The Red Bead Experiment demonstrates why this is.

Back to the group...
It occurs to me that old timers, most especially Demingites, assume "everyone" knows about the Red Bead Experiment.

Is anyone curious enough to make it worthwhile to start a new thread to talk about it and its implications for SoPK and Systems Thinking in general?

An ASQ stalwart, Steve Prevette, spoken of several times here in the Cove, offers a free script so an organization can try the experiment on its own.

A couple of years ago, the Cove listed a website with a photo showing Steve overseeing the Experiment:
http://www.hanford.gov/safety/vpp/redbeadreach.pdf
 

Kevin Mader

One of THE Original Covers!
Staff member
Admin
Steve also has a one hour video of him doing the experiment that was available for a minimal charge (not sure if this is still the case). I think that when I tried to buy it though, the receptionist didn't have a way to charge me. I've since purchased the Deming Library, which has the experiment along with the Funnel, so that base is already covered. These tapes, though, run around $500, so Steve's version is quite the bargain.

Kevin
 
Thread starter Similar threads Forum Replies Date
WALLACE Deming's SoPK (System of Profound Knowledge) Challenge Philosophy, Gurus, Innovation and Evolution 66
ScottK Dr. Deming's most neglected Points and Diseases Philosophy, Gurus, Innovation and Evolution 13
B Does anyone here have any experience with the Deming Prize? Quality Tools, Improvement and Analysis 1
WCHorn Deming's Eleventh Point and AS9101D are Incompatible Philosophy, Gurus, Innovation and Evolution 19
J Similarities between Juran, Deming and Crosby Philosophy, Gurus, Innovation and Evolution 7
S 97% Predictability in all things? Dr. Deming's statement Inspection, Prints (Drawings), Testing, Sampling and Related Topics 7
U Shewhart, Deming and Data - a thought provoking article Statistical Analysis Tools, Techniques and SPC 3
M Deming Quote in Out of The Crisis Philosophy, Gurus, Innovation and Evolution 3
P Deming - Management of Statistical Techniques for Quality and Productivity Philosophy, Gurus, Innovation and Evolution 9
G Deming Prize (TQM Implementation award) vs. TS 16949 Compliance IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 4
G Deming PDCA Cycle Automotive Mfg Sector Example IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 7
C Help with a Deming Quote Misc. Quality Assurance and Business Systems Related Topics 9
Stijloor Who will follow Deming-Juran-Crosby in their footsteps? Philosophy, Gurus, Innovation and Evolution 4
Stijloor The Deming Evangelist Philosophy, Gurus, Innovation and Evolution 21
Stijloor Are you a member of SAD (Society of Anti-Deming)? Philosophy, Gurus, Innovation and Evolution 24
M Deming on You Tube Book, Video, Blog and Web Site Reviews and Recommendations 1
B Games to understand SPC concepts - Variation, Tampering, (Deming funnel experiment) Statistical Analysis Tools, Techniques and SPC 2
P What influence have Juran Deming & Crosby had on the retail sector Philosophy, Gurus, Innovation and Evolution 1
V Quality Gurus Comparison - Deming, Juran, Crosby, Ishikawa and Taguchi Philosophy, Gurus, Innovation and Evolution 1
D Deming Cycle PDCA - The Check phase clarification, please Quality Tools, Improvement and Analysis 2
V Quality Gurus: Question on Comparison of Philosophies: Deming, Crosby, Juran Philosophy, Gurus, Innovation and Evolution 23
V Deming - Drive Out fear - How to Implement a TQM Environment Misc. Quality Assurance and Business Systems Related Topics 3
ScottK I am Going to Implement Deming's 12th Point for my Staff Philosophy, Gurus, Innovation and Evolution 8
Randy Deming and Shewhart information for Power Point slides related to P-D-C-A Philosophy, Gurus, Innovation and Evolution 8
C Deming award requirement? Control charts manually updated and not on PC? Statistical Analysis Tools, Techniques and SPC 2
Wes Bucey Research Seminar Seeking Deming Papers Philosophy, Gurus, Innovation and Evolution 0
L Required Reports for Deming Award - Corporate & Departmental Level Philosophy, Gurus, Innovation and Evolution 5
S The theories and practices of Deming, Juran, Kaizen and several others Philosophy, Gurus, Innovation and Evolution 3
WALLACE Deming's philosophy in education? Philosophy, Gurus, Innovation and Evolution 5
Marc Betamax vs. VHS - What does this tell us? How would Deming explain this? Philosophy, Gurus, Innovation and Evolution 11
Kevin Mader Fear - Deming's Point 8 - Reduce fear throughout the organization Philosophy, Gurus, Innovation and Evolution 30
S 6 Sigma Only for Giants? Deming's Thoughts? Six Sigma 3
P Quality Games and Deming's Red Bead Experiment Training - Internal, External, Online and Distance Learning 18
Marc Deming vs. Statistical Hypothesis Testing Statistical Analysis Tools, Techniques and SPC 9
D 4GM - Fourth Generation Management (Deming) Preventive Action and Continuous Improvement 3
W Juran vs. Deming - Your Thoughts? Philosophy, Gurus, Innovation and Evolution 39
D Japan Today vs. America today..was Deming Right? Preventive Action and Continuous Improvement 8
D Philip Crosby vs. The Deming Philosophy Preventive Action and Continuous Improvement 29
H Pedicle screw system Conformity Assessment Other Medical Device Related Standards 0
S Rees System Validation Qualification and Validation (including 21 CFR Part 11) 1
Q User Requirement Specification for HR (Human Resource Management System) Manufacturing and Related Processes 1
A Document Change Notice vs complete System re-write Manufacturing and Related Processes 4
C NCR (Nonconformance System) Software Nonconformance and Corrective Action 7
K ISO 15223-1 Sterile barrier system - The 3-layer symbol EU Medical Device Regulations 1
T Ideas for developing a Supplier Quality Management System, non automotive ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 5
S Starting an ISO 41001:2018 Facility management system Other ISO and International Standards and European Regulations 3
K ERP System Software Validation - ISO13485 2016 4.1.6 Design and Development of Products and Processes 8
F MDR system/procedurepack (article 22) with device acc. to MDD and MDR CE Marking (Conformité Européene) / CB Scheme 2
M MDR requires the NB to perform "tests in order to check that the quality management system" EU Medical Device Regulations 3
S CQI-23 - Molding System Assessment - Control of part weight IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 5
Similar threads


















































Top Bottom