Departmental KPI not met - should the Auditor raise a NC for it

Jen Kirley

Quality and Auditing Expert
Leader
Admin
Now that we understand what the target was, the question is less about failure to achieve a target/KPI/whatever, but rather failure to meet on-time delivery goals. It is okay to raise a nonconformity for it, but before doing that I am wondering if management was aware of this and what action did they plan to take? Kudos to the auditor for noticing, but I would prefer the managers pay attention to it than waiting for the auditor to find it. @Bev is right, there are still many reasons for missing on-time delivery. I can vouch that there are still a lot of supply chain disruptions that can slow production. That and many other potential causes might be something that managers have already discussed.
 

Bev D

Heretical Statistician
Leader
Super Moderator
I said SORRY and only justified why I had erred at post #22.

Golfman than questioned my past interpretation of ISO 9001:2008 (which I only added to show why I had erred) based on the word implicitly. And I explained that he was right, it WAS an opinion, not a requirement. So I explained my opinion. I admited I had erred and I am just trying to explain why of my error, but some of you seem to simply not want to drop the ball. I agree, let's focus on the current standards. For that, just accept my apology instead of continuing to press me forcing me to explain further and further.


Absolutely no pissing contest here. I said sorry, I didn´t really think it, and admited I had made a mistake in my previous post and only explained WHY I had the mistake, in no way my posts were trying to claim my interpretation of the previous standard were applicable to the current one.
My response was as a moderator and directed at the forum as a whole. There was no intent to direct it at any single individual.
 

Bev D

Heretical Statistician
Leader
Super Moderator
While you might think it’s a contest, it is important to know what the standard actually requires. How many times have we dealt with auditors opinions here? I don‘t want to deal with a NC based on an opinion. Been there, done that and there is nothing worse that affects the credibility of the iso standard.

Your questions are good, but for me boarders on semantics. Spent way too much time on semantics and Iso over the years. Figure out what works and focus on the actual business.
Geez. It is intended to get people to really think about this topic because there is far too much opinion about this topic and very little critical thinking. If you read my previous posts I have been thoroughly and unequivocal in my opposition to issuing an NC for not meeting a single “KPI”. Neither by an internal or external auditor because there is no such requirement. Any attempt to justify it is a delusional stretch of the imagination by either an ignorant bully or a person who is incapable of influencing their organization to improving quality. How’s that for not pulling any punches?

I prefer to ask thought provoking questions to get people to improve their critical thinking skills rather than repeating mediocre answers. We learn by thinking about real examples we can only remember when told something. I prefer learning….

A vibrant, effective monitoring, analysis and goal setting program for an organizations critical and supporting metrics is essential to improving quality. Yes, it’s above and beyond the minimum standards but it is at the heart of the intent of several sections of most standards. But it takes a village. An educated informed village in the engineering science of data. The occasional NC :poop: bomb won’t change anything. This is a quality forum not just a quality standard compliance forum. THIS is why I ask the thought provoking questions. I want to go beyond arguments about mere compliance. Steve Prevette writes expertly and extensively on this. I recommend everyone read his works.
 

qualitymanagerTT

Involved In Discussions
KPI - what the heck is a KPI? How is it different from a metric, quality objective, or other measure of performance? Give concrete examples.


Give concrete examples not vague “because the standard says so” statements.
Assuming KPI means "Key Performance Indicator", I'd like to add that my version of ISO 9001:2015 does not include the word "key" in clauses 4 to 10 (it does appear in an annex).
Maybe the discussions should also focus on what the standard actually requires, and not things which people "like to have" (Ref. ISO 9001 4.4.1c).
 

Golfman25

Trusted Information Resource
Assuming KPI means "Key Performance Indicator", I'd like to add that my version of ISO 9001:2015 does not include the word "key" in clauses 4 to 10 (it does appear in an annex).
Maybe the discussions should also focus on what the standard actually requires, and not things which people "like to have" (Ref. ISO 9001 4.4.1c).
Well I think there are two tracks going on in this thread now. One is what you say — what does the standard actually require. The second is Bev’s point, along the lines of what is best practice for measuring and monitoring performance, goals, objectives, etc. The standard is an “at a minimum” requirement. Actual practice may be more robust.
 

Bev D

Heretical Statistician
Leader
Super Moderator
I think we have concluded that no standards require that a single KPI (or a quality objective) be met or we are non-compliant. :deadhorse: Unless someone can come up with an explicitly stated requirement that we must meet all KPI goals.

Now we should be analyzing, justifying, revising or taking improvement actions on quality objectives and Key Process Indicators that do not meet the goal (target). This is covered in monitoring, data analysis and continual improvement sections. BUT we can prioritize them. For example we may have processes that have a defect rate above zero (zero usually being an implicit - yes I said implicit - goal).

In going beyond the simple NC I am tryin got get us to provide useful alternative guidance to the OP…
 
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