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bettsaj
Hmmmmm... i see where you're coming from. However the chances of the company purchasing one of those machines is highly unlikely due to financial contraints at the moment.
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The Specialist
Re: "Detection, NOT Prevention!!!!"
Can you create 'batch' documents that require specific tests/measurements and records throughout the process?
Can you create 'batch' documents that require specific tests/measurements and records throughout the process?
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bettsaj
We have a job card/traveller that follows the work around. There is provision on the back of the job card for each machine setter to perform and record an inspection. They initial and date it.
The problem is, either the inspections aren't being done.... Or worst still they can't check the work due to lack of knowledge or resources. For example... We have a bending department, that utilises Promecams. The parts are either lasered or punched and then sent for bending. When I first started at the company I asked a simple question to the bending dept supervisor "do you check the hole positions when you're bending the parts?" and the answer was an emphatic NO! I then asked why and he said that the parts should come of the punching machine correct, therefore the holes should be in the correct place. He just checks the 2 widths if he's bending a plate at right angles. I've always been taught to check hole positions on bending... you can never rely on the trumphs punching correctly... also it may highlight a programming error.
I then checked what they were using and all they had was a digital height stand with a scribing attachment and a vernier caliper. I asked him if he'd ever used a Dial test Indicator to check holes and he said "what's one of those?"
I then bought a DTI for the inspection room, he walked in looked at it and told me he didn't know how to use it.
I think a lot of my problems stems from lack of knowledge.
The problem is, either the inspections aren't being done.... Or worst still they can't check the work due to lack of knowledge or resources. For example... We have a bending department, that utilises Promecams. The parts are either lasered or punched and then sent for bending. When I first started at the company I asked a simple question to the bending dept supervisor "do you check the hole positions when you're bending the parts?" and the answer was an emphatic NO! I then asked why and he said that the parts should come of the punching machine correct, therefore the holes should be in the correct place. He just checks the 2 widths if he's bending a plate at right angles. I've always been taught to check hole positions on bending... you can never rely on the trumphs punching correctly... also it may highlight a programming error.
I then checked what they were using and all they had was a digital height stand with a scribing attachment and a vernier caliper. I asked him if he'd ever used a Dial test Indicator to check holes and he said "what's one of those?"
I then bought a DTI for the inspection room, he walked in looked at it and told me he didn't know how to use it.
I think a lot of my problems stems from lack of knowledge.
J
JRKH
Understood.
Still you might want to look into it a bit, get some pricing, maybe see if there is one in the area that you could use to show your boss/owner or whatever...In other words, plant a seed for later.
Just a thought
Peace
James
J
JRKH
You DO have your hands full.
I agree that it is mostly lack of knowledge, but there also appears to be a fair amount of "it ain't my job".
Keep looking for allies, individuals who care and are interested, and keep working with them. It's a long hard trudge, but if it's a basically sound company, it's worth the trudge.
Peace
James
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tori2432
I believe if you report "Cost of Quality" to management, they will see the big picture. Management is big on dollar amounts, if you show 'this is where you are because of this and if we implement prevention, we can save xxxx".....
Bettsaj,
With due respect, I think you may be part of the problem. You walk in with your 25+ years of experience and a "I know better than all of you" attitude and expect them to change. I can just tell from your comments. I have seen it time and time again.
As I see it you need to adapt to their concerns. Why you would want to check the first off samples is beyond me. There is no reason why the operators can't do it. Now they may need some "how to" training, some new tools to make inspection easier, some simple documentation procedures. But it needs to be approached as I am here to help you make your job easier. In other words, hold yourself out as a resource they can use to make their jobs easier and produce better product.
So here is an example. Someone is required to check something. However, it is a difficult process. Your job is to say -- how can we make this easier for you to check? Go/Nogo gage, a fixture, new instrument, etc. If you go to them and say -- "I have an easier way for you to do this" I think you'll get a much better response. Good luck.
With due respect, I think you may be part of the problem. You walk in with your 25+ years of experience and a "I know better than all of you" attitude and expect them to change. I can just tell from your comments. I have seen it time and time again.
As I see it you need to adapt to their concerns. Why you would want to check the first off samples is beyond me. There is no reason why the operators can't do it. Now they may need some "how to" training, some new tools to make inspection easier, some simple documentation procedures. But it needs to be approached as I am here to help you make your job easier. In other words, hold yourself out as a resource they can use to make their jobs easier and produce better product.
So here is an example. Someone is required to check something. However, it is a difficult process. Your job is to say -- how can we make this easier for you to check? Go/Nogo gage, a fixture, new instrument, etc. If you go to them and say -- "I have an easier way for you to do this" I think you'll get a much better response. Good luck.
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bettsaj
You have a good valid point Golfman25, I do however feel like I have a gun to my head as I've been asked to step upto the plate and get results quickly. Regarding my better than you attitude, well.... They're all looking at me to get quality levels up, i've been employed as QA manager therefore I'm being expected to assess and deal with the quality issues and install things in the system that will add value to the company, and I'll quote the general manager "the quality system is yours... deal with it as you see fit".
We've had a further developement on this issue which doesn't involve gauging... just visual inspection. That's now 2 new jobs in the space of 4 weeks that have reached the customer bypassing QA.
We've just had an issue where we sent 25 off parts to a brand new customer, all with a stud pressed the wrong way into the plate. It was a clear case of not looking at the drawing or not understanding the drawing. I was supposed to conduct an ISIR on it.... I didn't get to see it... it was shipped bypassing QA.
I've then had the finger pointed at me saying that I should have seen it. How can I see it if i'm not even told about the job. The root cause of that issue was that the planning department didn't have ISIR REQUIRED entered onto the job card at the beginning, as is the procedure. If that's not put on the job card it will just get shipped out... no questiuons asked.
Once things had calmed down, I advised the sales manager that probably a lot of the problem stems from the fact that the people that are setting and running the machines are not engineers, most of them are eastern european. A lot of them have got common sense, and probably can read a drawing ok, but there's probably a few that may not fully understand engineering drawings.
I've advised that by doing first offs on new jobs only it will help as I can provide a second set of eyes. I'm only suggesting that first offs are carried out on new jobs, as they are very critical... get them wrong at ISIR stage and we could lose the business.
We've had a further developement on this issue which doesn't involve gauging... just visual inspection. That's now 2 new jobs in the space of 4 weeks that have reached the customer bypassing QA.
We've just had an issue where we sent 25 off parts to a brand new customer, all with a stud pressed the wrong way into the plate. It was a clear case of not looking at the drawing or not understanding the drawing. I was supposed to conduct an ISIR on it.... I didn't get to see it... it was shipped bypassing QA.
I've then had the finger pointed at me saying that I should have seen it. How can I see it if i'm not even told about the job. The root cause of that issue was that the planning department didn't have ISIR REQUIRED entered onto the job card at the beginning, as is the procedure. If that's not put on the job card it will just get shipped out... no questiuons asked.
Once things had calmed down, I advised the sales manager that probably a lot of the problem stems from the fact that the people that are setting and running the machines are not engineers, most of them are eastern european. A lot of them have got common sense, and probably can read a drawing ok, but there's probably a few that may not fully understand engineering drawings.
I've advised that by doing first offs on new jobs only it will help as I can provide a second set of eyes. I'm only suggesting that first offs are carried out on new jobs, as they are very critical... get them wrong at ISIR stage and we could lose the business.
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Here's the thing. There is no such thing as a "quality system" per se. In reality it is a business system -- ie; just good business practices. If you work in terms of a "quality system" then you end up with the finger pointing you have experienced. You create a seperate "department" called QA and they become a gatekeeper and everyone hates them. To me that is the wrong approach. Isn't the saying "quality is everyone's job?"
Again, I think your role should be more as an advisor. You are there to help them make fewer mistakes, better meet customer expectations, and most importantly grow the business and increase profits.
I can tell they don't like QA. They will ship things as they see fit, regardless if QA looks at it and approves it. This culture will be impossible to change and frankly not necessary to change -- if you can get them making good parts the first time.
From your examples, it really sounds like your APQP process needs work. Your involvement prior to the release of a job to the floor might help -- prior to the mistake being made. It is there you can start addressing the issues. Just as the question -- "how can we ensure xyz?" Hopefully your collegues will start thinking and help you out. Just remember, sometimes things just happen -- people are human and they make mistakes. Heck, I had an experienced vendor build a die completely backwards. We ran the parts, looked at it, said "oh xhix" and laughed. Good luck.
Again, I think your role should be more as an advisor. You are there to help them make fewer mistakes, better meet customer expectations, and most importantly grow the business and increase profits.
I can tell they don't like QA. They will ship things as they see fit, regardless if QA looks at it and approves it. This culture will be impossible to change and frankly not necessary to change -- if you can get them making good parts the first time.
From your examples, it really sounds like your APQP process needs work. Your involvement prior to the release of a job to the floor might help -- prior to the mistake being made. It is there you can start addressing the issues. Just as the question -- "how can we ensure xyz?" Hopefully your collegues will start thinking and help you out. Just remember, sometimes things just happen -- people are human and they make mistakes. Heck, I had an experienced vendor build a die completely backwards. We ran the parts, looked at it, said "oh xhix" and laughed. Good luck.
J
JRKH
Ah yes - It reminds me of the many years I spent in just this kind of situation where an operator would bring me a "first off" and say, "Here, QC this for me"...They obviously didn't even know that "QC" stood for. I would then try to explain that I cannot "control quality", only they (the workers themselves) can control quality.
I've even checked first parts and signed off on them only to have someone change the process during the run and a bunch of bad parts....
Then the Boss comes and says - Well you signed off on the inspection!!...You are in for a long journey of growing yourself and also helping the company to grow.
In the example you give your investigation has obviously shown where the errors occurred (ISIR not called out, no final inspection). These kinds of things, and the actions required to correct will begin to incrementally change the system.
I might also suggest that, if you are concerned about the competency level of the workers, consider giving some short and to the point training. Things like basic Blueprint reading. Some folks I worked with didn't even realize how the different views are laid out on a drawing - Which conceivably could be why the stud was installed backwards. Another useful class might be in proper use of measuring instruments like calipers and micrometers.
Just some thoughts from someone who's been there.
Peace
James
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