Determining Special Audit Duration

[Crimpshrine13]

Could someone tell me where I can find this in the 5th edition of Scheme book? My understanding is that the 6th edition does not take place until January 1, 2025, so we're still going by the 5th edition rules. I was looking into this and having trouble finding it in the 5th edition. 6th edition talks about this more in details on page 46. How do CBs currently determine the special audit duration?

The appeals we filed to the CB earlier in September had been shot done unfairly (11 major NCs, appealed 8 of them for minor, and only 1 NC was accepted to be changed to minor), and I had filed a complaint with IAOB because the original renewal audit was involving ethics issues as well, and we're currently in the stage to get scheduled for the special audit, but the CB is wanting 2 days for special audit. I'd say that if they're going by 1 - 3 hours of review per major nonconformance, it'd probably go a little over 1 day, but I don't think it really requires 2 full days to review.

Reference threads to this issue:

IATF 16949:2016 Internal Auditor & 2nd Party Auditor Qualifications & Competency

We have a bit of a problem right now regarding internal and 2nd party auditor competency. This popped up as a result of renewal audit for IATF 16949. We have two people who have been trained in some form of auditing from external organizations in the past for ISO 9001, QS 9000, and TS 16949...

elsmar.com

Corrective Action Dilemma with Parent Company

We recently had IATF renewal audit, and one of the findings was related to corrective actions. My apology for a lengthy post. The biggest problem is that we cannot close out the corrective actions from last year that was issued to our parent company. We're tier 2 automotive company (100%)...

elsmar.com

Major Nonconformance Criteria - Elsmar Cove Quality and Business Standards Discussions

I am wondering if someone can provide opinions about our situation. My apology for the lengthy post. We had the renewal audit for IATF 16949 a few weeks ago. We've been certified to IATF 16949 since 2018 and this is for the 3rd cycle. We've seen many different auditors in the past since...

elsmar.com

 

[Ashland78]

You have to pay for this on AIAG.org I believe. It is a copyright thing to send electronic copies or share (ethically). It took me a LONG time to get my company to approve it. I purchased myself, they got a few 6th edition but that is not like the 5th edition.

I have a copy if you want me to look something up for you.

 

[Crimpshrine13]

You have to pay for this on AIAG.org I believe. It is a copyright thing to send electronic copies or share (ethically). It took me a LONG time to get my company to approve it. I purchased myself, they got a few 6th edition but that is not like the 5th edition.

I have a copy if you want me to look something up for you.

No, I already have both copies. The 6th edition has more details regarding the determination of audit days for special audits, where I cannot find the similar in 5th edition. That is why I posted this thread to find exactly where it says about it to figure out how CBs are determining the special audit durations.

 

[Ashland78]

I think it says so many hours per NC, and that is to ensure evidence is effective. I will take a look and see if I can find it.

 

[Ashland78]

Ok, I saw on page 45 where it explained Special Audits. I also saw on page 35 how they verify. I think 2 days is very reasonable to close the amount of issues you described.

Here what I see:
The certification body shall verify the effective implementation of the identified corrective actions at the next audit (see section 5.2).

5.11.4 Onsite verification of a major nonconformity
In cases of a major nonconformity, the certification body shall conduct an onsite special audit (see section 7.2) for the verification of the corrective action and shall complete the special audit within a maximum of ninety (90) calendar days from the closing meeting of the site audit.
In cases where the accepted corrective action plan for a major nonconformity is found to be not effectively implemented, the audit result shall be considered failed, the IATF database shall be updated, and the certificate withdrawn (see section 8.4).
The certification body shall issue a supplemental report to the client after verification of corrective action is complete, which shall include the verification details of each nonconformity.

5.11.5 Onsite verification of a minor nonconformity
Onsite verification of the corrective action for a minor nonconformity within a maximum of ninety (90) calendar days from the closing meeting of the site audit "is at the discretion of the certification body based on knowledge and experience." (Quotes are my emphasis)

In cases where the accepted corrective action plan for a minor nonconformity is found to be not effectively implemented, a new major nonconformity shall be issued against the corrective action process (see IATF 16949, section 10.2) and the previous minor nonconformity reissued as a major nonconformity.

The certification body shall issue a supplemental report to the client after verification of corrective action is complete, which shall include verification details of each nonconformity.

I have worked at prior companies that had 2 major, and 5 minor and we would review in 2 days.


I think the days include the registrar auditors to update the status and final report as well.


I wish you luck, if you want me to assist with anything. Please reach out in a dm. I have been part of Audits over 20 years now.

 

[Golfman25]

Sounds like NSF strikes again? If so, you're probably stuck with 2 days. At this point I would just suck it up and get it done and over with. As you found out, everything is stacked against you. Sit them in a hot or cold conference room, have all your documentation in another office, and slow walk it so they don't have extra time to cause more problems. Good luck.

 

[Crimpshrine13]

Sounds like NSF strikes again? If so, you're probably stuck with 2 days. At this point I would just suck it up and get it done and over with. As you found out, everything is stacked against you. Sit them in a hot or cold conference room, have all your documentation in another office, and slow walk it so they don't have extra time to cause more problems. Good luck.

Yes, I figure. I do not know how quickly IAOB does anything with the CB, but at this point the CB probably submitted the report to them by now so the numbers of majors won't change regardless. I'm just thinking of how to entertain the auditor for 2 days when most of them are just the clarification and use of words on documents. Just makes you wonder the legitimacy of the classification when the auditor is nitpicking. Oh, but I got the CB to change the auditor! The $3,000 invoice for 2-day audit triggered the review of all receipts and found a few grocery shopping receipts that weren't even meals. This was reported to EthicsPoint and addressed to IAOB as well. Never seen an auditor doing this in the past 20 years of my audit experience.

 

[Randy]

a few grocery shopping receipts that weren't even meals.

Are you sure?

 

[Sidney Vianna]

This was reported to EthicsPoint and addressed to IAOB as well.

 

[Crimpshrine13]

Are you sure?

Yes, and I say this because I have a verified evidence. A day before the audit after 7pm, the auditor purchased a bunch of sweets and shoestring fries and water totaling $33 or so and she assigned it as lunch for the day (a day before the audit), and a few minutes prior to that at the exact same location, she purchased jackfruit slices totaling about $22 and assigned it as breakfast for the day (a day before the audit). I am fairly certain she did this intentionally to split the receipt so it may look legit on the reimbursement request (I believe she was adjusting what she was buying so it didn't look odd on the reimbursement request sheet). If it was something that she wanted to consume during the audit as breakfast or something, I understand it, but she never brought these things to the audit, and on top of that she ordered Starbucks oatmeal on the morning of the 1st day of the audit (which she never ate, sitting on the conference room table, and tossed it on the 2nd day after the closing meeting saying "oh, it's probably no good anymore, right?" - which I thought was very rude), and all of the meals including the Starbucks order was done through UberEats which incurs 18% charge for deliveries, but she argued and insisted to order by UberEats for all meals, and on the day she flew back to home, 3 hours after getting off the airplane, she buys something in a grocery store that was $50.00 (even), that only had a screenshot without any details. On top of that, she says that she rented a car to get home from airport, and the car rental was from Saturday to Monday, which has nothing to do with the audit. Oh, and she ordered 6 ice cream cupcakes from Cold Stone Creamery for a dessert on the evening of the 2nd audit day (this also done with UberEats).

You probably don't believe it, but this auditor did this to us. I had a good reason to investigate as to why the expense was adding up to $3,000. I've never seen any auditors like this person in my 20 years of experience being audited. She just crossed boundaries too much. It's either she doesn't care because the company (client) is paying for it (as she said in her justification for ordering with UberEats because the company is paying for it either way so doesn't matter) or she doesn't care to toss so much food or she just wanted to take some souvenir to home or friend, or she may simply have some sugar issues. I actually think she probably thinks there's nothing wrong with what she is doing so she intentionally split the receipts in 2 payments to make $22 and $33 receipts and assigned them to suited meal.

Last year, an auditor who was a resident of Canada came, and the reimbursement request was done in CAD instead of USD. The CB probably did not realize it was in CAD, and sent us an invoice over $1,200. It was an 1-day audit, and based on the cost of hotel and meals around the area, I couldn't understand why it was so high, so I requested for the receipts, and there I found the currency issue. This could have been unintentional error, but I do not know. It brought the bill down to $900-something. Based on those two incidents, I am assuming that the CB is not thoroughly reviewing what the auditor is requesting for reimbursement or monitoring process. I am currently disputing the charges and asking if the CB has a policy and monitoring process for auditor expenses because the current contract only says that the travel expense is charged at cost, but that only works IF the auditor has common sense and basic business ethics. If they don't have stringent rules over these travel expenses, auditors can do whatever they want. I learned that from this current audit for the first time in 20 years.

To my knowledge, we've had 3 different CBs in the past 20 years, but the only CB that provided receipts along the invoice (without us even asking) was PJR (this was the first one when we had ISO and QS). I normally do not dig into details for these travel expenses or request for receipts unless I have a doubt about the invoice, but when I see something not right about the invoice, I do my due diligence. There had been too many red flags about this auditor during this audit, and when I saw the $3,000 bill, I was sure to look into it to ensure that the charge was legitimate and necessary. I mean, if it was your own money, you make sure that what you're getting charged is correct, and I do the same thing for our company. I'd rather spend my time more productive way though instead of digging through someone's grocery bill.