Differences between Non-conforming Material vs. Nonconforming Product

M

METerry

#1
My thanks in advance of what I know will be useful help from forum members. You patience and tolerance for ameteurish questions are greatly appreciated by this poster. Particularly useful is information from those who have 'been there and done that' - practical implementation.
I need some advice regarding treatment of non-conformances in incoming raw materials versus non-conformances in products. We have documented processes and work instructions for the creation of NCMRs for manufactured products including the disposition of the products. What we do not document is the process for handling non-conforming incoming raw materials. Can both not be addressed within with one Procedure and one Work Instruction?
What is the difference between a "Product" and a "Material"? My ISO guidance books generally define "Product" as the "result of a process". ISOs 8.3 does specifically say "Control of Product" and most discussions relate to disposition in terms of customer requirments as if raw materials are to be considered elsewhere. Are raw materials not also products (results of a process) whether we consider them to be results of a suppliers process or alternatively, results of our own Purchasing process? Why are they called NCMRs (non conforming materials reports) if they only consider Products? Why aren't they NCPRs (non-conforming Product reports)? Are we splitting hairs at this juncture (does it matter)?
 
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Colin

Quite Involved in Discussions
#2
Re: Non-conforming Material versus Product

Nonconforming product can be at any stage, be it at goods in (raw materials or parts), during production or finished product. What the standard requires is for us to control it as stated by clause 8.3. There does not need to be a distinction between parts and material.

1 procedure is fine, just make sure it covers all eventualities of nonconformance. Alternatively, you could describe in a procedure how to conduct a task (say goods in) and describe what to do when you get n/c material/product as part of that procedure.

I often don't have a separate procedure for n/c product, I include it in the procedure(s) that describes other activities such as goods in, production, packaging etc.
 

Jim Wynne

Leader
Admin
#3
Re: Non-conforming Material versus Product

Nonconforming product can be at any stage, be it at goods in (raw materials or parts), during production or finished product. What the standard requires is for us to control it as stated by clause 8.3. There does not need to be a distinction between parts and material.

1 procedure is fine, just make sure it covers all eventualities of nonconformance. Alternatively, you could describe in a procedure how to conduct a task (say goods in) and describe what to do when you get n/c material/product as part of that procedure.

I often don't have a separate procedure for n/c product, I include it in the procedure(s) that describes other activities such as goods in, production, packaging etc.
To take Colpart's good advice a step further, some companies use a single form and process to deal with all nonconforming conditions, even those that are not directly related to products/materials. It's possible to use the same form and process for documenting audit findings, for example.
 
M

METerry

#4
Re: Non-conforming Material versus Product

Colpart,
Many thanks for your reply.
I'm still getting resistance and claims that raw materials are handled under 7.4.3. We do not investigate the nonconformity under 7.4.3.
 
M

METerry

#5
Re: Non-conforming Material versus Product

Thanks for your input! I am being advised that 8.3 applies only to nonconforms in produced product and to nothing else.
 

Colin

Quite Involved in Discussions
#6
7.4.3 does relate to the verification of purchased product so it does involve the receipt of raw materials (if that is what has been purchased). However, 7.4.3 does not tell us what to do if there is a problem so we need to go to 8.3. I can assure the doubters that 8.3 refers to all nonconforming product.
 
M

METerry

#7
My understanding and interpretation is similar to yours. We even have a space on our bulk raw material inspection forms for "disposition" but we do not define who has the authority or responsibility to determine disposition. I suppose we will eventually come to understand our auditor's interpretation.
Thank you for your time and advice.
 
E

event

#8
Does ISO 9001 require to document every nonconformity, however small it is?
I understadt that if You order a fan from your supplier and upon installing it you find out it has an imbalance, you should record this.
But if a small screw is bended and you just take a new one out of a 100 pieces box, should this be recorded too?

Is it ok to set some standards how the employees can differ between problems which should be documented and smaller problems which can be solved immediately?

Or are non conformities only problems you find at some kind of checkpoint/quality gate etc. ?

If thats the case, what about problems the employees run into while assembling parts?
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Bev D

Heretical Statistician
Leader
Super Moderator
#9
ISO is looking primarily for how you control (prevent) the unintended use of nonconfomring product. This includes identifying it in some fashion.

Many companies have documented procedures that allow for immediate local control and disposition of 'low cost scrap' such as a bent screw that can be easily identified, replaced and dispositioned by throwing the thing in a trash can or specially marked bin for 'scrap' material. The thing is identified as nonconfomring by being in the bin. Sometimes these bins are 'locked' such that anyone can get things into it but not easily out of it (think of a lobster trap). Sometimes these bins are simply trash cans and the operators know - and you can demonstrate in some objective way - that they can't go 'dumpster diving' to reclaim parts. In these cases the 'tracking' of low cost scrap is typically done from an inventory consumption to yield comparison. The cost just doesn't justify an individual entry into some database or paper form...

now ISO does say that the records of the occurence of such events and theri disposition hsuold be maintained - but it doesn't specifically require you to record the events...I'm curious as to what some of our auditors have to say about this scenario...
 
#10
7.4.3 does relate to the verification of purchased product so it does involve the receipt of raw materials (if that is what has been purchased). However, 7.4.3 does not tell us what to do if there is a problem so we need to go to 8.3. I can assure the doubters that 8.3 refers to all nonconforming product.
That's the way I read it too.
 
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