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Disappointed in leadership buy-in to QMS

Sidney Vianna

Post Responsibly
Staff member
Admin
#31
I don't disagree that leadership top management should be the victims target focus of audits, but, what tends to happen if and when CB auditors keep them accountable to their responsibilities, and write them up (the emperor has no clothes on), they (top management) don't like being exposed and demand auditor "rotation".
 
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RoxaneB

Super Moderator
Super Moderator
#33
Every one of my audits started and finished with top management.

After all they have a right to know what I am up to and what I found.

Straight after the opening meeting and just before the closing meeting.
Ditto re: the start and end with top management. Not just to let them know what I'm up to, but to also explore what they think the company is up to. They set the stage with their metrics and goals and objectives. Everything that comes after that discussion is hopefully aligned with what they think they're doing.
 

RoxaneB

Super Moderator
Super Moderator
#34
I don't disagree that leadership top management should be the victims target focus of audits, but, what tends to happen if and when CB auditors keep them accountable to their responsibilities, and write them up (the emperor has no clothes on), they (top management) don't like being exposed and demand auditor "rotation".
With all due respect, any CB auditor should know better than to write up a finding that finger points to a person (or group of people). The finding should be against the requirement and the process. A CB auditor should also know how to conduct a closing meeting that focuses on the expected outcomes, the reality of the current state, and the conformance (or lack there of) of processes to requirements...again, the focus should not be saying "you folks didn't do what you were supposed to do."
 

Big Jim

Super Moderator
#35
Don't almost all the procedures accurately reflect their processes?

Keep the new processes to an absolute minimum. Allow the system to inform the team where changes are needed instead of inventing them in your office.

One of the biggest “implementation” mistakes is trying to improve processes and impose new procedures instead of developing the system around what already exists.

Again, allow the system to inform the team where improvements are needed. That is one of the main reasons for developing it.

Respect more of their system as it is and they may be more inclined respect your QMS.

I always include top management in the opening meeting. Why should they be left out? I hold the leadership interview with top management immediately after the opening meeting, but they should be included there too.
 

Jen Kirley

Quality and Auditing Expert
Staff member
Admin
#36
The easiest way to approach this is have the auditor interview "Top Management" during the ISO audit. The owners at my company initially balked at this but now actually look forward to being audited. Sometimes I am concerned they volunteer too much information, but I would rather it this way then having to pull teeth!
That is an explicit requirement from my CB, passed down from expectations of AB and the ISO Technical Committee. In addition to auditing them, we need to hold them accountable to action in response to management review inputs. The expectations of top management in ISO standards' leadership sections are specific and actionable in their terminology.

I once wrote a major NC against Resources based on three separate examples of insufficient resources (corporate cutbacks). It was my most stressful closing meeting ever.
 

John Broomfield

Staff member
Super Moderator
#37
Evidence of a major nonconformity should be reviewed with top management before the closing meeting so they have an opportunity to provide any evidence to the contrary or, failing that, prepare to show their renewed commitment to requirements in the closing meeting.

Best not to surprise anyone in the closing meeting.
 

Big Jim

Super Moderator
#38
Evidence of a major nonconformity should be reviewed with top management before the closing meeting so they have an opportunity to provide any evidence to the contrary or, failing that, prepare to show their renewed commitment to requirements in the closing meeting.

Best not to surprise anyone in the closing meeting.
Absolutely. NCRs should be reported as they are found. Perhaps better said potential NCRs should be disclosed as they come up even if it is not clear that it is an NCR yet.
 

Jen Kirley

Quality and Auditing Expert
Staff member
Admin
#39
Evidence of a major nonconformity should be reviewed with top management before the closing meeting so they have an opportunity to provide any evidence to the contrary or, failing that, prepare to show their renewed commitment to requirements in the closing meeting.

Best not to surprise anyone in the closing meeting.
Quite right.

In this case my co-auditor was one of our most respected and experienced. She and I agreed on our combined findings pointing to a Major NC. I recall that we did inform the QA manager, who no doubt informed the others during the time we did our last writeup, but the cutbacks were actually made by corporate offices who then attended the closing meeting via speaker phone. We could have heard a pin drop during those pauses... The local managers were tearing up while I insisted emphatically to the actual and virtual group that the nonconformity was, in our view, in no way the result of lack of caring or effort to do the right thing. They simply did not have enough resources, as evidenced by X Y and Z.

We auditors often shared a little joke that the Lead would send the Co auditor to get the car during the closing meeting, bring it around and keep it running for a speedy getaway. That one time I knew exactly what the joke meant.
:2cents:
 

Silex7

Involved In Discussions
#40
I would suggest you to address them with the language of "the cost of Nonconformity", explain to your management the weakness points in your system and how will this going to reflect back in term of business profit. Do not decorate it, just provide actual facts based on your current situation and its impact on your business.
 
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