Disclosing suppliers to customers - PPAP and TS16949

Elsmar Forum Sponsor
#12
Howdy,
Some gut reactions to what you wrote...HTH

I am 100% on board with upper management in this particular case. Your customer has no need to know who your suppliers are...just that you have control of the incoming product.
The customer knowing your vendor, then communicating the name/product/part number/pricing/lead time/specs/etc. to your competitor to generate competition (lower price)...been there, done that...expect it if you drop trou.


Customer expectation is that you will hide whatever you can to protect yourself and you competitive advantage...and they will try to make you break that for their competitive advantage. They aren't there to help you, and you CANT trust that they have your best interest at heart. They have THEIR best interest at heart...period.


If it hits the fan, don't worry about what they taste, worry about your wallet. If it hits the fan, they already will be down on you regardless of what you reveal...holding sources and methods secret is your only hope of maintaining the business and recovering afterwards.
Thanks for the observations! That being said, do you have any insight on what you HAVE to reveal during this process? We have concerns of things going south and then possibly have our certifications called into question, or worse.
 
#13
In Aerospace, there is a concept that is codified in the AS9100 standard that is called WORK TRANSFER. The idea being that, if your organization was presented as the facility where the parts were going to be manufactured, and later you want to outsource it to another site or supplier, you have to make sure that such transfer is controlled and the risks assessed.

I don't think the IATF 16949 document has any equivalent restrictions, but that might be embedded in the contract between your organization and the customer. Obviously some sleazy organizations perform "bait and switch operations" whereby they mislead customers into thinking that their parts would be built in this state of the art facility, just to outsource it to questionable suppliers, after they get the contract.

How robust is your supplier approval and monitoring process? Your customer might want to know. I understand your management concerns about disclosing the suppliers you use for their parts, but they can find it via other means, such as an audit of your procurement process. Would you deny them access to your Approved Suppliers List? they might start getting suspicious.
Our supplier process is strong. We have been working with a lot of the partners for decades, and we know everyone's strengths and weaknesses.

I think where my concerns stem from is, the previous QC team members would present the info on the PPAPs in a way that it looked like we were making the parts internally, where that was not the case.

Are there ways to present this info without giving away the goose so to speak?
 

try2makeit

Quite Involved in Discussions
#14
Does this not have to be reported, the customer notified, or something like that?
From what I know, one can't make any changes without notifying the Customer and getting approval to do so. If it isn't covered in the Supplier manual from the Customer in itself, it sure is covert under IATF.
 

Ninja

Looking for Reality
Staff member
Super Moderator
#15
do you have any insight on what you HAVE to reveal during this process?
There is no cut and dry answer to that in entirety...but there certainly are some "Shall"s in the APQP and PPAP processes, as well as IATF.
Read the documents...word by word...learn for yourself what MUST be, and what is optional. If it doesn't say MUST...it's optional.

"Have to" to comply with PPAP and IATF, "Have to" in order to land the business, and "Have to" to be true to your company's policies and integrity are three different things (with much overlap)...but all three lines are in different places.

At the end of the day, the customer will have minimum requirements of disclosure in order to buy from you...you don't get to know what they are.
At the end of the day, it is in your company's best interest to reveal as little about sources and methods as possible to protect your IP...
It is in the customer's best interest to know everything about what you do so they can pressure your price down by a variety of methods.

Your company and the customer will dance around each other for a while to find if there is a middle ground where you disclose a little more than you had wished, and they have learned a little less than they had wished.

In my experience, engineering and quality from the customer side will demand that full disclosure is required (basically a lie), and if you fall for it you're basically toast. Management on your side will hold the line "reveal nothing", which will totally kill the relationship. And your Sales and their Engineering and Purchasing will either find a middle ground or they wont. The lower your price is, the more the customer will be willing to back off.

Your initial post sounds like you and your boss want to jump into the toaster thinking its a good idea (it isn't). Based on that, I suggest you lean heavily on whomever is the primary relationship manager and salesperson on your side and follow their lead...and learn from them how these things actually work. Beyond the plain requirements of {your customer's definition of} PPAP and the plain requirements of IATF...there is no real right or wrong left. Again, read the written requirements for yourself and look at the "shalls" and "musts"...there are a few, but not many at all in the area we're discussing.
 
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