Definition Disposition Definition - Disposition means Prevention of Recurrence?

J

JaneB

#11
Mezzaluna,

If someone sent me back a 'stack' of NCRs, I'd focus on the substantive issue - why I'm getting so many NCRs from the customer, not whether I believe he's using a term incorrectly!

And if I was the customer who'd sent you a stack of NCs and your response was to tell me I'd used the 'disposition' term wrongly, whether you cited a stack of references or not, I'd be distinctly underwhelmed by your response (to say the least). And probably start looking for a new supplier immediately.

Why do you want to get to a position where 'He can't argue'? Arguing with a customer is almost invariably a no win position. Plus in this case it sounds just a little like rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic. Or not seeing the wood for the trees - choose your cliche. Definitely a distraction from the important fact.

Sounds like he's saying your NCs aren't identifying what you're doing to prevent recurrence. Are you? If you are, why are you getting a stack of NCs? Forget whether he's away - get to work on that. Because you've definitely got a problem, and it isn't whether the disposition term is misused/not!
 
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M

Mezzaluna

#12
Oookaay.

I think further expalanation is in order.

Mr X's Company sent us specification A, about 12 months ago. This spec informs us in the event of an NCR use form B.
Which we did. Form B has no section for "Detail measures taken to prevent recurrence", in fact, it finishes with "Corrective Action taken..."
All our NCR's were returned because we did not use form C. We have never been sent form C. The wording for this was:

"NCR has not suitable prepared using appropriate format - as a result NCR does not identify suitable disposition to prevent re-ocurrence and cannot be closed out"

My reason for a written definition of "Disposition' is that I *know* he will incorrectly define it to get him (and his company) out of the hole they have dug themselves)

There.
 
J

JaneB

#13
Interesting how there's (almost always) more to a story than just the bare facts. Which add a different light on it.

When you talk about the hole they've dug, what do you mean? Does this mean that the courrent brouhaha has some kind of contractual
implications?

Form B has no section for "Detail measures taken to prevent recurrence", in fact, it finishes with "Corrective Action taken..."
OK, granted I'd be a bit irritated if their spec said use Form B and you did, but surely 'measures taken to prevent recurrence' and 'corrective action taken' are (should be) the same thing?

All our NCR's were returned because we did not use form C. We have never been sent form C. The wording for this was:

"NCR has not suitable prepared using appropriate format - as a result NCR does not identify suitable disposition to prevent re-ocurrence and cannot be closed out"
Ah - now that would annoy the hell out of me too. Deep breath territory? (As in, take several before responding). How silly.

Problem is, as already said, arguing fiercely with a customer (unless it's one you don't want to keep) usually risks the possibility of a Pyrrhic victory.
 
J

JaneB

#14
The one fact I don't have a clear understanding of is this:

Notwithstanding the storm in a teacup of Form B vs Form C and quibbles over exact wording, are you quite confident that you have already taken all necessary and reasonable corrective action including action to prevent recurrence on all NC issues? And communicated this in writing in a timely manner?
 

Big Jim

Super Moderator
#15
Jane has indeed cut the heart of the matter. Unless you no longer want to do business with this customer, find out what they want and do it.

This is a great case for "choosing your battles". Don't chose the ones you can't win, or at least in winning, you would still lose the war.
 
M

Mezzaluna

#16
Hi Jane,
Yes indeed we have. The man himself is back tomorrow, so I can sort all this out with him.
Our customer here is one of the biggest companies in the world, and I'm surprised how relatively slack some of their procedures and docs are.

Thanks again for all your help - I will let you know how it pans out.
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#17
Oookaay.

I think further expalanation is in order.

Mr X's Company sent us specification A, about 12 months ago. This spec informs us in the event of an NCR use form B.
Which we did. Form B has no section for "Detail measures taken to prevent recurrence", in fact, it finishes with "Corrective Action taken..."
All our NCR's were returned because we did not use form C. We have never been sent form C. The wording for this was:

"NCR has not suitable prepared using appropriate format - as a result NCR does not identify suitable disposition to prevent re-ocurrence and cannot be closed out"

My reason for a written definition of "Disposition' is that I *know* he will incorrectly define it to get him (and his company) out of the hole they have dug themselves)

There.
I know how frustrating this sort of thing can be, but as long as you're sure you never received Form C or a document that explains the requirements, you should just inform the customer that you weren't aware of the form and requirement, then use the correct form and move on. As you seem to understand, you're not likely to prevail in an argument about semantics or missing forms.
 

somashekar

Staff member
Super Moderator
#18
Hi Jane,
Yes indeed we have. The man himself is back tomorrow, so I can sort all this out with him.
Our customer here is one of the biggest companies in the world, and I'm surprised how relatively slack some of their procedures and docs are.

Thanks again for all your help - I will let you know how it pans out.
I will echo your view in that big company in itself does not mean better or best systems followed.
But without falling into that trap, I believe any non-conformance reported to a company must be addressed in the company's corrective action procedures and this will include the actions taken to prevent re-ocurrence. So I am pretty sure you have the answers that your friend wants in his Form C.
If you get the Form C now, you fill in the details that you have (perhaps your customer is Form C specific rather than concerned about specific actions of you) and send him.
OR
You send your actions about the NCR handled completely within your procedures and he gets the details adequately. (Hope he is sensible enough to map your details into his requirements)
 

Big Jim

Super Moderator
#19
I will echo your view in that big company in itself does not mean better or best systems followed.
But without falling into that trap, I believe any non-conformance reported to a company must be addressed in the company's corrective action procedures and this will include the actions taken to prevent re-ocurrence. So I am pretty sure you have the answers that your friend wants in his Form C.
If you get the Form C now, you fill in the details that you have (perhaps your customer is Form C specific rather than concerned about specific actions of you) and send him.
OR
You send your actions about the NCR handled completely within your procedures and he gets the details adequately. (Hope he is sensible enough to map your details into his requirements)
If the customer wants the responses on his forms, use his forms.
 
J

JaneB

#20
If the customer wants the responses on his forms, use his forms.
In future, yes of course.

BUT IF they didn't send me that form until now and IF there's a lot of forms to resubmit and IF it's a large amount of effort for little value in transcribing already supplied info on the newer version of the form rather than the version of the form they'd already told me to use... I think I'd be looking for a more practical and commonsense solution.

:topic:
Tis a great pity that quality is sometimes relegated to (or seen to be preoccupied with) arguing about the merits of form version B rather than C and the like... Yes, there are times when the difference is huge and of substantive importance. And times when it just isn't. OK, I'll climb down off my soapbox now.
 
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