DMAIC as a model for managing an Internal Audit program

2

2.5bostons

#11
always room for improvement

Andy

after reading your last post, it sounds like your internal audit system could use improvement...

during my comparatively short quality career I have worked at one company which did exactly what you described: internal auditors who really didn't understand the importance of thier task, picked at random and ineffectively reviewing the procedures, process and people. The currently company I work at has three fulltime internal auditors (one for each shift, but are moved around as needed). These people are trained and come prepared when auditing.

The results are incredible.

As for a tool to improve your audit system... PDA, DMAIC, all would work. I am partial to DMAIC as I am too a SSBB

good luck
 
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Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
#12
AndyN said:
....More to the point, if there has been improvement, why is it that internal audits aren't delivering the same results as 6 Sigma. ...My point is, the model for internal auditing needs to change, big time and fast.

Andy

Andy...Paisano (is that spelled right?)...

What are ya doin' to me, pal...?

If all my clients were to achieve 6 sigma results from their internal audit efforts... I'm gonna have to find a real job...!:D
 
#13
Not my internal audits.......

2.5bostons said:
Andy

after reading your last post, it sounds like your internal audit system could use improvement...

during my comparatively short quality career I have worked at one company which did exactly what you described: internal auditors who really didn't understand the importance of thier task, picked at random and ineffectively reviewing the procedures, process and people. The currently company I work at has three fulltime internal auditors (one for each shift, but are moved around as needed). These people are trained and come prepared when auditing.

The results are incredible.

As for a tool to improve your audit system... PDA, DMAIC, all would work. I am partial to DMAIC as I am too a SSBB

good luck
but what I've seen over 14 years of training hundreds of auditors and working with many organizations who've been implementing audits. I realized that auditors have no 'internal validation' that they've done a good job with their audits. The closest they get to someone saying 'good job' is an external auditor - namely a registrar. If they find nothing to write up ('H' this is not personal;) ) then the internal auditors feel validated. But, what do their management get from the audits?

You make assertions that the 'three Musketeers' ;) get great results, so, since Jim threw down the gauntlet to me, 2.5Bostons, what have you seen that warrants such praise?

Oh, and I'm guessing that the small number of responses here shows a validation that audits give underwhelming results..............;)

Andy
 

Caster

An Early Cover
Trusted Information Resource
#14
Its not me - its them.

AndyN said:
Oh, and I'm guessing that the small number of responses here shows a validation that audits give underwhelming results..............
AndyN said:


My audit team can find easily find way more significant problems than "they" can fix. Auditing is like communication - a 2 way street. If only 1 person is involved, nothing will happen.

I don't feel I have a problem with my audit team. We have a problem with the auditees. They have other more imortant things to do <aka firefight>.

Interestingly they are still fighting the same fire we saw 2 audits ago. They lightweighted the Corrective Action, did not address the real Root Cause and hey, they get to fight the same fire again.

I am now convinced that this is by design. We are trained from birth to fire fight, cowboy it up. Heros indeed. John Wayne, Rambo shoot from the hip. Ready, fire, aim!

What kind of ***** stops, thinks, fixes? No one a movie will ever get made about.

Heart surgeon or public health nurse vaccinating kids - come on - tell it true - who do you wanna be?

Who save more lives? 10,000 to 1 to the lower paid, low glamour job.

Prevention? We don't need no stinking prevention! It might not happen, and if it does, it will give us something exciting to do anyway.

OK, I feel better now (not really)
 

Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
#15
Caster said:
...Interestingly they are still fighting the same fire we saw 2 audits ago. They lightweighted the Corrective Action, did not address the real Root Cause and hey, they get to fight the same fire again.
That's the beauty of this - if they don't get it right, they invariably get another chance to do it again.:D


I am now convinced that this is by design. We are trained from birth to fire fight, cowboy it up. Heros indeed. John Wayne, Rambo shoot from the hip. Ready, fire, aim!

What kind of ***** stops, thinks, fixes? No one a movie will ever get made about.

Why sure they make movies about them...Titanic...Deliverance, Dead Man Walking...lot's of 'em...
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#16
Caster makes an excellent point, and Helmut gives the perfect response, but here we are. My point in asking Andy to elaborate was to emphasize the fact that a lot of us understand the problems, but far too few of us can actually do anything about them. Day after day we hear from frustrated people whose heads are ready to explode because management has told them to clean up Dodge City (to extend Caster's analogies) but gives them no badge and no gun, or worse, a gun with no bullets in it. As soon as everyone finds out there are no bullets, it's business as usual.

For myself, I learned a long time ago to just do the best job I can with what I've been given to work with, and to take pleasure in small victories. We have to concentrate on helping those who want to be helped, and trying to convince those who don't want to be helped that their lives can be made easier.

As far as Andy's original question is concerned, applying DMAIC or PDCA or any other palliative to a terminal patient is helpful in the short term, and you might be able to make the patient a bit more comfortable, but until management actually allows us to work on a cure, there will be a lot of successful operations that result in dead patients.
 
2

2.5bostons

#17
example of positive audit system

AndyN said:
You make assertions that the 'three Musketeers' ;) get great results, so, since Jim threw down the gauntlet to me, 2.5Bostons, what have you seen that warrants such praise?
Andy

Though I work 3rd I trot my butt in to the audit review meetings to see how things are actually accomplished. The positive here is that the plant operations staff stand behind the internal auditors IF the auditors can prove justification for the corrective action. At this plant it is high profile about what dept finish thier corrective actions -so alot of organizational pressure to complete the internal audit corrective actions. Hey it isn't w/o flaws but I am impressed with the efforts.

To the point the other postings (caster, jim, et al) stated: change is very difficult. When I started the flaws I saw included that there were two opposing cost centers in the manufacturing line which drove a multitude of sins, a contribution method of financing as opposed to activity based costing and counter-intuitive QA inspection criteria from one line that feeds the other. mmmmm

Well pick and choose your battles... during a working lunch when my boss stated he was looking for help to improve our lines I gently tried to point out how they can change to improve and my boss looked like he was going to fall off his chair laughing :bonk:...hey that is how it has always been here....

Maybe it is me... I sound like Mary Tyler Moore on crack when nervous:eek:

Andy pick and choose your battles.

From your post and the tools you want to use, it sounds like you are in an epic battle...

Good luck... I think the other posts (caster, jime, et al) had valuable information I hope it works out for you
 

Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
#18
Jim Wynne said:
...For myself, I learned a long time ago to just do the best job I can with what I've been given to work with, and to take pleasure in small victories. We have to concentrate on helping those who want to be helped, and trying to convince those who don't want to be helped that their lives can be made easier.....

I think you're right. To link this with a favorite saying of mine...

You help those who want to make things happen,
Explain it to those who watch things happen (a few may join in),
And bury (or leave behind) those who wake up and ask, "What Happened?"

Life is too short, and you can't breathe life into a dead tree.
 
#19
Wow...............and all I said was.......

has anyone used DMAIC as a model for internal audits..........:rolleyes:

Andy
 
Last edited:
2

2.5bostons

#20
the number is 42

OK...

back on point:truce:

I have never used DMAIC as tool for internal audit

How do you want to use the Design/Measure/Analyze/Improve/Control model?

To improve your internal audit system? If so what are the metrics that you will be using?

Christina
 
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