Do non-IATF customers need to be included in audit scope?

Dan M

Involved In Discussions
#1
Hi,
We have an automotive customer. The fluid we produce ends up on the vehicle. However, the customer does not require suppliers to be certified to IATF 16949. In fact, the Customer's supplier quality manual only states ISO 9001 as a supplier requirement. In audit planning, our CB asks us to list the customer and products. Do we need to include this customer in the scope of our IATF audit? Some background: not all of the customers and products we manufacture are automotive, so we have many customers and products that are not relevant to the IATF audit. Thanks.
 
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Golfman25

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#2
You have the nightmare scenario. Technically, all automotive customers whether they subscribe to IATF or not are supposed to be included. So yes, you need to include that customer. But you also have the situation where some products are non-automotive. You'll need to identify what is and what isn't automotive. Otherwise, you'll be stuck dealing with auto requirements on products that don't need them. Good luck.
 

Pau Calvo

Starting to get Involved
#3
If you are IATF certified it means that your quality system must be compliance, therefore all your products must be indeed IATF compliance. If that is not the case you might have issues with the ISO9001 since you are not compliance with your own system for the non-auto products.
It is important to not mix product requeriment with system requeriments, IATF is system requirement.
An other thing is that your IATF audit scope only should target auto products.
 

Golfman25

Trusted Information Resource
#4
If you are IATF certified it means that your quality system must be compliance, therefore all your products must be indeed IATF compliance. If that is not the case you might have issues with the ISO9001 since you are not compliance with your own system for the non-auto products.
It is important to not mix product requeriment with system requeriments, IATF is system requirement.
An other thing is that your IATF audit scope only should target auto products.
I am not sure what you are trying to say here. IATF doesn't apply to non-auto products. So for example, you can have different ISO auditors vs. IATF auditors which require more qualifications as laid out in the standard.
 

Pau Calvo

Starting to get Involved
#5
My comment was a bit off-topic.

What I want to say is that if your quality system is IATF and you do not apply it for non-automotive parts that can lead to a non-conformity in a ISO 9001 audit for the non-automotive parts since you are not respecting your own quality system.
Therefore your non-automotive parts will have same system requeriments than your automotive parts.

Regarding the question of the OP if your product is applied to automotive industry and you have to go through an IATF audit you must include the customer. The auditor must target only the references related to automotive industry.
 

Golfman25

Trusted Information Resource
#6
My comment was a bit off-topic.

What I want to say is that if your quality system is IATF and you do not apply it for non-automotive parts that can lead to a non-conformity in a ISO 9001 audit for the non-automotive parts since you are not respecting your own quality system.
Therefore your non-automotive parts will have same system requeriments than your automotive parts.

Regarding the question of the OP if your product is applied to automotive industry and you have to go through an IATF audit you must include the customer. The auditor must target only the references related to automotive industry.
There are some things that over lap and make sense to apply to both automotive and non-automotive. However there are a lot of areas where automotive requirements are overkill. So we make exceptions for those. Auto is handled one way and non-auto can be handled with less stringent requirements. PPAP process and the AIAG books (which are usually required by CSRs) is one area for example.
 

Ron Rompen

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#7
My own personal experience with this has taught me that (in the end) it is easier to have ONE quality management system which is applied to ALL products, no matter who/what the customer is. If you try and differentiate between two product types (one IATF, one not) then you will invariably end up with some employees working under the wrong system for the wrong parts. Much simpler to have it all the same.
 

Golfman25

Trusted Information Resource
#8
My own personal experience with this has taught me that (in the end) it is easier to have ONE quality management system which is applied to ALL products, no matter who/what the customer is. If you try and differentiate between two product types (one IATF, one not) then you will invariably end up with some employees working under the wrong system for the wrong parts. Much simpler to have it all the same.
So IATF essentially requires ISO certified suppliers with plans to get to IATF. ISO requires no such thing. Would you use ISO suppliers on products where you're better off with those that choose not to go ISO (ie: one/two man shops -- who offer better cost, delivery and quality)? I would say, no. You're procedures should contain exceptions for non-auto products.
 

Pau Calvo

Starting to get Involved
#9
So IATF essentially requires ISO certified suppliers with plans to get to IATF. ISO requires no such thing. Would you use ISO suppliers on products where you're better off with those that choose not to go ISO (ie: one/two man shops -- who offer better cost, delivery and quality)? I would say, no. You're procedures should contain exceptions for non-auto products.
I totally agree with you in that point, but you can use a QAA to address that point is no need to have the IATF certification requeriment for suppliers in your procedure. In my opinion procedures should be much more generalistics.
 

Golfman25

Trusted Information Resource
#10
I totally agree with you in that point, but you can use a QAA to address that point is no need to have the IATF certification requeriment for suppliers in your procedure. In my opinion procedures should be much more generalistics.
Then you're essentially running under two systems.
 
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