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Do not eat the snow... - Continued

Scanton

Wearer of many hats
#11
I'm playing Devil's advocate to make a point. Nothing personal here.
I Know, and I took no offence.

Yes. Even if we fail, at least we'll know we did our best instead of standing by.
Are our individual token efforts really the best we can do? Would it not be more effective to wrestle the control of our planet out of the hands of the capitalists and place it in the hands of people who have an interest in our future existence?

My emphasis - these are all assumptions that aren't necessarily true.
For the large part they are not assumptions, as green options almost always mean you go without, have less of something or have to use something different that isn't anywhere near as good as what you were previously using.

My green options for transport are a vehicle I can't afford that does more damage to the planet and is less fuel efficient than the one I am currently driving, or a vehicle I can't afford that can't hold enough charge to get me to work and back and pushes the energy problem back to the power station...... and before you say it, no I am not going to cycle a 90 mile round trip to work every day..... and the bus runs once a day, and arrives two hours after I am due to arrive at work and leaves two hours before I am supposed to leave work, and costs more that using my car.

The majority of environmental solutions, like water usage reduction" means that my shower duration is too short or my bath is too shallow to be a pleasant experience and don't have enough water to flush my effluent away, etc. All of these things are personal compromises that negatively impact the individual and have negligible impact in the grand scheme of things.

In a way you are correct. Maybe watch the documentary Cowspiracy then come back and we'll take it from there.
Thank you for the recommendation, I will indeed watch this and get back to you :)
 
#12
I'm playing Devil's advocate to make a point. Nothing personal here.
The whole point/need to make changes is to be able to talk and not take offense because someones opinion differs from yours. Part of the problem (in my opinion) is if you have a different opinion, the vocal minority attacks you personally.

Are our individual token efforts really the best we can do? Would it not be more effective to wrestle the control of our planet out of the hands of the capitalists and place it in the hands of people who have an interest in our future existence?
The issue I have here is "who" has our best interest. The 'Green New Deal' has little to do with green and probably set any 'good' plans to incorporate anything green back 10 years as now people have this to point to.

Flint Michigan proves the government does not have our best interest in mind.

Like almost everything else in this world, I believe it is up to the individual to care about the individual, i.e. nobody care about me more than I do.

Yes. Even if we fail, at least we'll know we did our best instead of standing by.
What if I don't care and choose to stand by? I accept the responsibility of inaction and could be injured or die from this, but I just don't care enough.


It seems every week I hear of a new thing that is causing issues, I have heard that Avocados are bad. Then you have the arguments that the re-usable bags are worse because they hold bacteria, require washing, or they only last a year or two and manufacturing them harms more than the 1-2 years they are used for; or the arguments for using them: use them longer than 2 years, they are sturdier, or you are not making new bags.

I just don't care anymore. Too many people have too many agendas and almost everyone who has any authority to fix anything gets corrupted by the system.
 

Ronen E

Problem Solver
Staff member
Super Moderator
#13
Would it not be more effective to wrestle the control of our planet out of the hands of the capitalists and place it in the hands of people who have an interest in our future existence?
Yes. If you have an idea how to do it, I'm all ears.
For the large part they are not assumptions, as green options almost always mean you go without, have less of something or have to use something different that isn't anywhere near as good as what you were previously using.
I disagree. It may be true in some cases, but IMO not in a large part and definitely not in all cases. Many times it's either a matter of perspective / how you analyse the situation, or of how things are currently set-up (current infrastructure, systems in place), or of short term vs. long term; not an absolute, invariant given.
My green options for transport are a vehicle I can't afford that does more damage to the planet and is less fuel efficient than the one I am currently driving, or a vehicle I can't afford that can't hold enough charge to get me to work and back and pushes the energy problem back to the power station...... and before you say it, no I am not going to cycle a 90 mile round trip to work every day..... and the bus runs once a day, and arrives two hours after I am due to arrive at work and leaves two hours before I am supposed to leave work, and costs more that using my car.

The majority of environmental solutions, like water usage reduction" means that my shower duration is too short or my bath is too shallow to be a pleasant experience and don't have enough water to flush my effluent away, etc. All of these things are personal compromises that negatively impact the individual and have negligible impact in the grand scheme of things.
All that links back directly to my recommendation on Cowspiracy... that's why I suggested we continue after you watch it.
 

Ronen E

Problem Solver
Staff member
Super Moderator
#14
the vocal minority attacks you personally.
I'm not sure who you refer to, I hope it's not me. I didn't attack anyone personally. If I strongly oppose some person's opinion, to the point, it's not personal (and as long as it's not nasty, which I hope I wasn't, it's also not an attack).
I believe it is up to the individual to care about the individual, i.e. nobody care about me more than I do.
That sounds to me like a self-fulfilling prophecy. If we all believe that nobody else cares about us (or about anyone else) and that it's our primary goal to care about ourselves and no-one else (which follows, because it's their primary goal to do it), then for sure pretty quickly no-one will care about no-one but themselves.

What if I don't care and choose to stand by? I accept the responsibility of inaction and could be injured or die from this, but I just don't care enough.
[...]
I just don't care anymore.
I actually respect you saying that more than some arguments why it doesn't matter. If someone chooses to be completely selfish that's fine as long as they don't complain when they get hurt while others pursue their own selfish goals. I think it's a rather slippery slope that leads quite quickly to a kind of society I wouldn't want to live in, but I accept that you might see it differently.

It seems every week I hear of a new thing that is causing issues, I have heard that Avocados are bad. Then you have the arguments that the re-usable bags are worse because they hold bacteria, require washing, or they only last a year or two and manufacturing them harms more than the 1-2 years they are used for; or the arguments for using them: use them longer than 2 years, they are sturdier, or you are not making new bags.
It's a matter of proportions / priorities. I don't suggest we go back to being hunters and gatherers, and understand that some evil is probably necessary, definitely in the short term. The main question is where we are heading in the big scheme of things. You might say "I don't care, nothing matters any more" - to that there is nothing I can say except that I think it's a little sad to spend life in this kind of atmosphere. I believe that a lot can still be done, but I accept that many people will not get on board before the water level reaches their neck (literally).
 
#15
I'm not sure who you refer to, I hope it's not me. I didn't attack anyone personally. If I strongly oppose some person's opinion, to the point, it's not personal (and as long as it's not nasty, which I hope I wasn't, it's also not an attack).
No, I am not referring to you in the way you are thinking. I was actually saying (badly) that it is nice to finally be able to have a disagreement with someone without it generating into personal name calling. I like having discussions with people I disagree with, I learn things. It is a good way to grow and change when it is necessary. Lately, if I disagree with someone on-line it turns into name calling instead of a meaningful conversation with someone I disagree with. I attribute this to 'keyboard warriors' and I also know it is the 'vocal minority' as the majority of people are just exhausted by it, thus the term 'exhausted majority'.

Again, I was not linking you into the 'vocal minority', actually the opposite, someone who wants to have a discussion and change minds or at least get people to think.
 

Ronen E

Problem Solver
Staff member
Super Moderator
#16
No, I am not referring to you in the way you are thinking. I was actually saying (badly) that it is nice to finally be able to have a disagreement with someone without it generating into personal name calling. I like having discussions with people I disagree with, I learn things. It is a good way to grow and change when it is necessary. Lately, if I disagree with someone on-line it turns into name calling instead of a meaningful conversation with someone I disagree with. I attribute this to 'keyboard warriors' and I also know it is the 'vocal minority' as the majority of people are just exhausted by it, thus the term 'exhausted majority'.

Again, I was not linking you into the 'vocal minority', actually the opposite, someone who wants to have a discussion and change minds or at least get people to think.
Thank you, that's very encouraging.
2 comments:
1. I attribute the lack of ability or will to stay on point in online discussions (actually, it also seems to leak into real-world discussions now) to the prevalence of so-called "social media" - it has radically flattened thinking and shortened attention spans. People behave like toddlers - If I don't get what I want quickly I'll just go into tantrum mode.
2. "Vocal minority" - you seem to use it in a derogatory way, but to me these are simply people who are passionate about something, that haven't given up yet. Of course they are a minority - fighting for what you believe in is hard and comes with a price.
 

Ninja

Looking for Reality
Trusted
#17
Not to pick on Ed...but it looks like the other three are in a groove that I don't want to interrupt...
It's interesting to know if the changes are man-made but ultimately we still have to do something to save ourselves and our biosphere.
I rarely accept "have to" statements...and this therefore caught my attention.

Does anyone have a link or resource they can lead me to as to what global civilization would "have to" do in order to combat this trend?
Not "help", certainly not "everyone has to help a little"...something that is "global society would have to ____(insert specific things here)___."

Specifically: Conclusive scientific evaluation that was not paid for by a party that benefits from from the conclusion.

I've seen ample twisted data "proving" the trend.
I've seen ample twisted data "proving" that the trend is not man made.
I've seen ample lack of data that there is a trend outside of normal cyclical environmental fluctuations.
And I've seen plenty of talking heads...including articles that glaciers are growing at alarming rates.
Anyone have something that, if in their production line, would cause them to spend $1MM to address it? I haven't seen that...but would like to.
 

Ronen E

Problem Solver
Staff member
Super Moderator
#18
@Ninja
If I had $1MM to spend I would have invested time and thought what to spend it on. But I don't.

What do you expect?... To sit in your armchair with a nice cuppa while someone redirects you to the mother-of-all-websites, where indisputable scientific data and absolutely-impartial analysis (LOL, is there ever anything as that?) abounds? Not gonna happen.

If you care about this, the only way I know is to continuously expose yourself to more data, analysis and opinions, from diverse sources, applying your best critical thinking and forming your own opinions, which are right for you, then take whatever action you think is right by your standards (legal, of course). There isn't, and IMO won't be in my lifetime, an inspiring and responsible world leadership, let alone one with a grand plan, but I haven't yet given up on the notion that individuals can make a difference if there are enough of them. Maybe I'm naive but most of the time I can't help it.

I think that the developed-world reality is that we've become so selfish that we're willing to make almost no lifestyle sacrifices even if it means that someone else, far away or at another time, will pay a heavy price. All the rest is no more than recruited rationalization.

I hope you don't live somewhere like Norfolk, Virginia.
 

Ninja

Looking for Reality
Trusted
#19
???
Not sure I followed the connect from my question to your answer...but that's OK...I miss things sometimes.

I think that the developed-world reality is that we've become so selfish
applying your best critical thinking and forming your own opinions, which are right for you, then take whatever action you think is right by your standards
I know "selfish" and "self centered" are two different things...but it seems that you are proposing that self centered is the only approach. Am I missing something again?

How can a "what action is right by your standards" approach by each individual have any reasonable impact on a global concern?

If you care about this, the only way I know is to continuously expose yourself to more data, analysis and opinions, from diverse sources,
If you re-read my post, perhaps it may be noticed that I'm asking for leads on data I haven't seen yet...got no cuppa, and am not in an armchair.

Please note again that I am asking for additional data, not critiquing anyone's point of view.
 

Ronen E

Problem Solver
Staff member
Super Moderator
#20
it seems that you are proposing that self centered is the only approach.
No. In my dictionary "independent" and "self-centred" are not the same. All I meant was that since it's so complex and there are so much data and opinions the only way to get convinced is DIY.
How can a "what action is right by your standards" approach by each individual have any reasonable impact on a global concern?
Please define "reasonable".
Personally, I don't expect my actions to have any noticeable global impact (as examined on their own). I don't even expect to find proof that what I do has in fact the effect I intended. I suffice with a rational, educated analysis showing that there is some high likelihood (want definitions? >50%) that it pushed things in the direction I believe to be the right one rather than the opposite.
I'm asking for leads on data I haven't seen yet...
Data you haven't seen yet - not can do, don't know what you've seen.

I know it's not what you'd call "raw scientific data" but again, I recommend Cowspiracy as one possible starting point to trigger some quest. Chasing and verifying all the data they seem to have used may be a lot of (endless?) work, and you might never get to 100% or even 90% confidence. I don't feel that would have been the best use of my time, though in theory that would be the best option. Some of that data - yes, definitely. Other than that I think that it's a healthy approach to doubt their motives and to try and look into that a little, and also into their funding. I did some of that and found out that I couldn't easily dismiss it. If anyone can show me the cracks I'd thank them.
 
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