Do OFI's (Opportunities for Improvement) really help?

I think that OFI's are useful (1) and I want to continue to receive them (2)

  • 1 - Very useful

    Votes: 11 31.4%
  • 1 - Occassionally useful

    Votes: 20 57.1%
  • 1 - A waste of time

    Votes: 3 8.6%
  • 2 - I want to continue to receive them

    Votes: 7 20.0%
  • 2 - I do not care

    Votes: 3 8.6%
  • 2 - Please stop

    Votes: 4 11.4%

  • Total voters
    35
  • Poll closed .
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J

jaimezepeda

#32
With respect to external audits, we welcome the OFIs.

Our QMS has been designed so that OFIs are used as input when initiating preventive actions. It aids us in our preventive action process when an external auditor issues an OFI.

Jaime
 
#33
A large number of auditors use the mechanism of OFI's to "add meat" to the bones of an audit. IMO it is almost impossible to write an OFI that is not a non conformance.
I think that really depends on the auditor's experience other than "auditing ISO". Two examples from my current auditor (from DNV, hi Sidney:bigwave:):
OFI in the supplier control area. We have a lovely database for tracking Supplier [corrective mostly] Action Requests. Said database was reasonably up-to-date. Specific non-conformance against timely update of the SAR database was not supported. OFI of database update. This was a good call and no "official" suggestion was made; just take another look. We ended up building a monthly review into the Materials Team's regular meeting. Closed feedback loop.:agree1:
OFI for safety. Due to auditor's extensive safety compliance experience we were given an opportunity to take a look at safety training regarding overhead lifts. The lifts were on our PM list for maintenance but there were no specific training records for how to use them. Again, no evidence to support an QMS finding against the standard but this saved us a potential OSHA compliance issue.
o by identifying problems which, if resolved, will enhance the organization’s performance.
o by identifying improvement opportunities and possible areas of risk
Examples of each above. What's wrong with that. Hiring a third party is expensive. I certainly hope that I can get more than an audit report and a fancy certificate.
I used to write a number of OFI's during each audit, but have stopped. The Clients felt they were very useful, but the CB's I work for are obeying the pressure from ABs to not write OFIs.
It is an oxymoron - the audit process is to drive improvements, but we cannot recommend improvements...:bonk:
I say write them and leave it to the auditee to decide which they find useful.
The AB's are out of touch with reality. You better be doing something more for me as a registrar than filling my Improvement System with BS (barely supportable) findings so that you can meet some arbitrary quota of findings per audit.
Perhaps, one day, you will have the privilege of being audited by an experienced, good auditor who provides value and good recommendations. It sounds like you have not had this opportunity yet.
May I suggest that you interview a couple from DNV?
Consulting - when an outside person recommends/suggests (and implements in some cases) methods on how to do something.

In my case, he is very careful to NOT recommend methods on how to do things. He simply informs me that a process should be reviewed for possible improvements. He has not once used the "An another facility, I saw that they did X to resolve this" or "Creating X would greatly assist you" or "Automating this would resolve the errors in this area" or "I noticed a great deal of duplication in this area"...etc.

I do realize that many auditor may(do?) cross this line. My current external auditor is very careful not to.
As is mine. We appreciate not being told how to do it. We appreciate being given a heads-up if the auditor sees something that has caused someone else grief. After all, these folks have been in scores of different plants and seen a lot of different things. I can't imagine someone like Randy (with an obviously colorful background) overlooking a serious issue in a plant just because it wasn't an "ISO" finding.

Finally, let me say that honey catches more flies than vinegar. Is their anyone out there that doesn't believe that auditors are human? If they point out an issue for your benefit, I have to believe that you receive some good feelings from the auditor when they appear at your doorstep and see that you have actually listened to what they said and made some improvements based on the opportunities that they have pointed out to you. Were I a third party auditor, his kind of attitude would certainly make me more inclined to believe that your QMS seeks to improve via input from any direction, rather than you wishing to receive only a PDF file full of fancy logos stating that you are compliant.
 

Sidney Vianna

Post Responsibly
Staff member
Admin
#34
What is your definition of Consulting?
In the context of accredited management system certification, the management of impartiality has the definition of consultancy defined via ISO 17021.
[FONT=Helvetica, sans-serif]3.3 [/FONT][FONT=Helvetica, sans-serif]management system consultancy [/FONT][FONT=Helvetica, sans-serif]participation in designing, implementing or maintaining a management system
[FONT=Helvetica, sans-serif]EXAMPLES are [/FONT]
[FONT=Helvetica, sans-serif]a) preparing or producing manuals or procedures, and [/FONT]
[FONT=Helvetica, sans-serif]b) giving specific advice, instructions or solutions towards the development and implementation of a management system. [/FONT]
[FONT=Helvetica, sans-serif]NOTE Arranging training and participating as a trainer is not considered consultancy, provided that, where the course relates to management systems or auditing, it is confined to the provision of generic information that is freely available in the public domain; i.e. the trainer should not provide company-specific solutions.[/FONT][/FONT]
Hiring a third party is expensive. I certainly hope that I can get more than an audit report and a fancy certificate. The AB's are out of touch with reality.
I think this is the heart of the matter. Many organizations expect something beyond the certificate, when they engage in a professional relationship with another organization. Competent auditors typically accumulate a wealth of knowledge and many times are exposed to industry's best and worst practices. Without breaking any rules, external auditors can bring many potential improvements to the surface. The old cliche' does apply. Sometimes one is too close to the tree to see the forest. You need an outsider to give you a different perspective. Let me give you an example: Many years ago, a colleague of mine was auditing an organization involved with the manufacturing of optical fiber cables. They were having significant problems with the extrusion process, and were mystified with some imperfections in the material, post extrusion. They could not pinpoint the reason for some defects. They had spent countless weeks, tinkering with speed, shapes, dies, ingredients, to no avail. This colleague of mine, by no means an expert in optical fiber extrusion, when looking at the process being used, asked if the problem could be induced by electrostatic discharge. The engineers looked at each other, dumbfounded. Tried an experiment and confirmed that a number of imperfections were due to electrostatic discharge. The issue was not even written up as an OFI, but just by asking the question, the auditor saved this organization a significant chunk of money, time and Advil.

It does not happen all the time, but when you have a competent, knowledgeable auditor, partnering with a learning organization, a healthy relationship normally ensues.
 
C

CliffK

#35
I think we're seeing two flavors of OFI's here. One I heartily support, the other I despise without limit.

The ones I like :yes: point to a practice that, while technically in compliance with the standard, might hamper the organization in meeting its goals. (If it's not in compliance, it's an NC, right?)

The despicable :nope: others generally contain a "should," along with a specific suggestion about how to proceed.

:yes:Example of good OFI: "The method of identifying training requirements is complex and hard to understand. It took twenty minutes to verify the competence of J. Random Employee. This complexity may cause people to stop using the training system. You might want to consider simplifying it."

:nope:Borderline OFI: same as above, but auditor gives a nudge and wink and says "Google 'training matrix.'"

:nope::nope: Bad OFI: same as first, but auditor adds, "You should use a training matrix."

:nope::nope::nope: Worse OFI: any statement that's not based on a requirement of the standard, but something you should do because "I think it's a good idea."
 

Howard Atkins

Forum Administrator
Staff member
Admin
#38
How are the percentages in the poll calculated?
Very good question, Marc?

CB= Certifiation Body, I should have made it clear in my OP

I would say that there is no reason that the OFIs should not be "thinking out loud", auditees write everything down, the moment the auditor commits it to paper it aquires a life of its own.
 
C

CliffK

#39
I would say that there is no reason that the OFIs should not be "thinking out loud", auditees write everything down, the moment the auditor commits it to paper it aquires a life of its own.
:mg:

Horrifying idea.

How many ways can auditor "thinking out loud" go wrong?

1. Transcription error ("we need to make sure the panda bear eats, shoots and leaves.")
2. Provide ammunition to one party in internal power struggle ("The auditor says YOU have to do this!")
3. Auditor disowns idea if emailed about it (Mgt rep email: can you explain what you meant about XYZ? Auditor reply: I never said that, and even if I did, I wasn't really consulting when I did.)
4. Just encourages those who would like to dabble in running your company and/or its quality system.

I wish these were hypothetical, but they ain't. Seen 'em all.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Marc

Hunkered Down for the Duration with a Mask on...
Staff member
Admin
#40
How are the percentages in the poll calculated?
Multiple choice polls: Percentages are based on the total users who voted and that choice.

Percentages are "percentage of people who voted for this option", not "percentage of votes cast for this option". The former may be a bit unintuitive, but it may be more useful when conducting multiple-choice polls.

It does, admittedly, look a bit strange at first glance, and might not be suitable for all purposes.

BTW - It's coded in so it's not something I can change.
 
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