Do OFI's (Opportunities for Improvement) really help?

I think that OFI's are useful (1) and I want to continue to receive them (2)

  • 1 - Very useful

    Votes: 11 31.4%
  • 1 - Occassionally useful

    Votes: 20 57.1%
  • 1 - A waste of time

    Votes: 3 8.6%
  • 2 - I want to continue to receive them

    Votes: 7 20.0%
  • 2 - I do not care

    Votes: 3 8.6%
  • 2 - Please stop

    Votes: 4 11.4%

  • Total voters
    35
  • Poll closed .
T

tlonkey

#61
The OFI's have been a mixed bag for me. Some have been very good and were implemented while others seemed to be like a pet project of the auditor to pass along. So I guess I would say I am on the fence for the practice. I have never had an auditor review previous OFI's so that would be something new for me.

tlonkey
 
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C

chaosweary

#62
I voted very useful. I wish there was a super-duper useful to pick from, because I would have picked that.

1. Since I always tell my auditees that OFI's may degrade over time into non-conformities they almost always address them. This keeps me from having to track it and follow up on it in the official corrective action system and I just check on it during the next audit to see if its still there. OFIs really cut down my work. This is important as my audit schedule does not take into account potential followup audits.

2. You can really write things that need improvement outside of the scope of ISO9001 like housekeeping. If something looks crappy (example - some of our dumpsters had graffiti on them) but not a safety hazard, there is no violation of ISO9001, but you can still get action on it.

3. My boss really wants me to consult more not just to do internal audits, OFI's are the "magical" place where the consulting goes.

4. Its a good place for findings where you don't want to write up the area because your friend is the manager and when the upper management uses findings to punish people on their yearly performance reviews.

5. Our registrar likes them because they write them too.

6. It is good filler for the audit report. :D

...i really like the word magical:magic:
 

Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
#63
The OFI's have been a mixed bag for me. Some have been very good and were implemented while others seemed to be like a pet project of the auditor to pass along. So I guess I would say I am on the fence for the practice. I have never had an auditor review previous OFI's so that would be something new for me.

tlonkey
I would say if "some" of them have been "very good," then they have been beneficial.
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#64
I would say if "some" of them have been "very good," then they have been beneficial.
I agree. If a suggestion seems worthwhile, then run with it. If it doesn't, then don't. I would (and have in the past) discuss it with the auditor, however, and let her know (a) whether the OFI was useful or not and (b) if not, why not. It gives the auditor an opportunity to improve.
 
P

Pazuzu - 2009

#65
IMHO - an OFI is only as valuable as you want to make it. It's a suggestion, a recommendation, a 'I've seen another plant do xxxxx and I feel it may be of benefit to your organization'. I've received some that make perfect sense and have implemented. Others have no better use that to line the birdcage with.

They cannot be considered a nonconformance because their is no objective evidence that the standard is not being met.

They are nothing more than a viewpoint of the auditor. Call it consultation (a dirty word in auditing circles) or whatever but they quite often have merit. What matters is whether or not you and your organization feels it's of value.
 

Howard Atkins

Forum Administrator
Staff member
Admin
#66
As I understand it according to the latest rules (3rd edition) of the ISO/TS you have to show first that there is a conformance to the requirement before you suggets an OFI, in the past most OFI's that I have seen are NC in disguise
 
M

Murphys Law

#67
My experience has been that OFIs can sometimes be the auditor's ego by showing how clever they are. Best humor them by nodding.

However, you should evalaute them though as they could be the next audit hot button.
 

Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
#68
As I understand it according to the latest rules (3rd edition) of the ISO/TS you have to show first that there is a conformance to the requirement before you suggets an OFI, in the past most OFI's that I have seen are NC in disguise

Apparently the IATF holds the same viewpoint. I just read the 3rd ed of the Rules (IATF Presentation) and indeed the format put forth to document an OFI is very restrictive.

Further, if they (witness auditors) deem that an OFI should have been an NC, or that it "sounds consultive," it constitutes a MAJOR NC! On that basis, given how easy it is for auditors to arrive at different interpretations and conclusions, I expect that VERY FEW OFI's will be written going forward.

WHAT A SHAME! Sure, there have been poorly written OFIs, but there have been MANY well written and appropriate OFIs as well, and they have been very useful to robust companies trying to improve their performance.

The whole D**n ISO/TS program is supposed to promote continual improvement, and they cut off one of the arguably most effective ways to promote performance once basic compliance has been achieved. Companies pay $1000's to have CB surveillance audits performed. They have a right to receive value for their investment, beyond a nice pat acknowledgement that they continue to be compliant.

With the huge problems that the Detroit 3, and now the rest of the industry, is struggling to overcome, surely this was not the cause of their problems. I would argue it was effective in solving and improving many processes.

"...3 steps forward, 2 steps back..." is a he**uva way to promote progress or "improve" an industry. They should have written up the blatant bad guys, and promoted the good ones. That would have been "value-added." But, ABs have a history of painting with very broad brushes.

The wrong solution at a very bad time in the industry...
 
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Stijloor

Staff member
Super Moderator
#69
Apparently the IATF holds the same viewpoint. I just read the 3rd ed of the Rules (IATF Presentation) and indeed the format put forth is very restrictive. Further, if they deem that an OFI should have been an NC, or that it "sounds consultive," it constitutes a MAJOR NC! On that basis, given how easy it is to arrive at different interpretations and conclusions, I expect that VERY FEW OFI's will be written going forward.

WHAT A SHAME! Sure, there have been poor OFIs, but well written and official OFIs have been very useful to robust companies trying to improve their performance.

The whole D**n ISO/TS program is supposed to promote continual improvement, and they cut off one of the arguably most effective ways to promote performance when basic complaince has been achieved. Companies pay $1000's to have CB surveillance audits performed. They have a right to receive value for their investment, beyond a nice pat acknowledgement that they continue to be compliant.

With the huge problems that the detroit 3, and the rest of the industry, is suffering to come out of, surely this was not the cause. I would argue it was an effective solution.

"...3 steps forward, 2 steps back..." is a he**uva way to promote progress. They should have written up the blatant bad ones, and promoted the good ones. That would have been "value-added."
I agree with Helmut! :yes:

For well-meaning (knowledgeable) auditors, this means that they're caught between a rock and a hard place.
To say it bluntly: "You're damned if you do and damned if you don't."

How to add value folks? :frust::frust:

What do the Clients say? :frust: :frust:

Stijloor.
 
M

Murphys Law

#70
Ego aside, another take on OFI is that they may have found a train of thought they picked up on but during the audit, they didn't have the time or the evidence to definatively nail you on it. (One piece of non-conformance was not enough to be a systematic pattern)

During our external audits, we have a corporate audit escort who fight tooth and nail to push back on such things. I've been privy to some potential audit findings but got negotiated off. There was a lot of behind the scenes haggling especially on findings that will be political. If the case is weak and doesn't stand up to our counter arguments, often the auditor gives up the fight but fires a shot across the brows with an OFI instead of a finding.

We've had the same lead auditor for a number of years and the more he audits, the more he learns about our business. This means he can dig down and also remember what one site said when saying "site X is responsible for that".

On the other hand, I'd argue a continual auditor may be susceptable to 'stockholm syndrom' where they can become too familiar and sympethetic with his audience.
 
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