Do Product validation samples have to come from your PPAP build?

S

Sharon_Noble

#1
Hi again all;
We are renewing our APQP system and are having a debate. Is it a requirement for product validation samples to be taken from your PPAP build, or can they be taken from a pre-PPAP production run?
Again any help from the Forum is greatly appreciated.;)
Thanks
 
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Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#2
Sharon_Noble said:
Hi again all;
We are renewing our APQP system and are having a debate. Is it a requirement for product validation samples to be taken from your PPAP build, or can they be taken from a pre-PPAP production run?
Again any help from the Forum is greatly appreciated.;)
Thanks
By the time PPAP is due, it's way too late to be doing validation in most instances. Unless your customer has a specific requirement to the contrary, validation should be done before the PPAP run.
 
D

dmackey

#3
I agree, there is no value in running a quantity for PPAP if there is a problem, the costs will accumulate quickly. We run a very small sample (5 - we're a low volume manufacturer) and complete verification and validation at that point (fit, form and function and evaluate appearance if applicable). If all is good, we complete the PPAP run, Run at Rate etc. at that point. It has saved us alot of time, money and has prevented timing issues with our customer when design needs tweeking.

Just my two cents.
 

Caster

An Early Cover
Trusted Information Resource
#5
Check the APQP manual for ammo

Sharon_Noble said:
Hi again all;
Sharon_Noble said:
We are renewing our APQP system and are having a debate. Is it a requirement for product validation samples to be taken from your PPAP build, or can they be taken from a pre-PPAP production run?
Again any help from the Forum is greatly appreciated.
Thanks


Hi Sharon

Check the APQP manual itself for ammo for your fight (debate?). PV comes many stages (and pages) before PPAP. It may provide an input to PPAP. I don't have the book in front of me or I'd try to quote the page numbers.

I wonder if you have a similar problem to us, people here try to equate APQP = PPAP when actually PPAP is only 1/42nd of APQP (if memory serves).
 

Howard Atkins

Forum Administrator
Staff member
Admin
#6
PPAP is in fact the report that shows that you have performed the APQP correctly including validating the part/process.
If you are not design responsible you only have to validate the process which you must do before supplying samples to the customer
 

radame

Starting to get Involved
#7
Re: Check the APQP manual for ammo

Hi Sharon

Check the APQP manual itself for ammo for your fight (debate?). PV comes many stages (and pages) before PPAP. It may provide an input to PPAP. I don't have the book in front of me or I'd try to quote the page numbers.

I wonder if you have a similar problem to us, people here try to equate APQP = PPAP when actually PPAP is only 1/42nd of APQP (if memory serves).
Hello
I have the same question and it is not very clear if parts for PV are comming from PPAP or a build before, it's a little open:

Actually in AIAG's APQP manual in page 35 states:

"4.5 Production validation testing
Production validation testing refers to engineering tests that validate that products made from production tools and processes meet customer engeneering stadards including appeareance requirements."

But before in page 34 (section 4.1) Significant production run

The significant production run must be conducted using production tooling, prodution equipment, production enviroment (including production operators, facilty, production gages and production rate.

Previous text is not clear, it does not indicate if that production tooling, equipment, etc., etc. must be the line we are installing/releasing for that specific product, just any other production tooling, equipment, etc., etc. we already have.....

continue:

The validation of the effectiveness of the manufacturing process begins with the significant production run ( refer to the Chrysler, Ford, and General Motors Production Part Approval Process (PPAP) manual or the appropiate customer-specific requirements for additional details).

The minimum quantity for a significant production run is usually set by the customer, but can be exceeded by the organization's product quality planning team Output of the significant production run (product) is used for:

- Preliminary process capability study
.
.
.
- Production validation testing

Now it is more confusing, this seems like PV would be from parts build from PPAP or any other significant run, but we know significant run is most often PPAP...

I guess we need to have a pre-PPAP to build those units for PV

Any comment on this??
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#8
Re: Check the APQP manual for ammo

Hello
I have the same question and it is not very clear if parts for PV are comming from PPAP or a build before, it's a little open:

Actually in AIAG's APQP manual in page 35 states:

"4.5 Production validation testing
Production validation testing refers to engineering tests that validate that products made from production tools and processes meet customer engeneering stadards including appeareance requirements."

But before in page 34 (section 4.1) Significant production run

The significant production run must be conducted using production tooling, prodution equipment, production enviroment (including production operators, facilty, production gages and production rate.

Previous text is not clear, it does not indicate if that production tooling, equipment, etc., etc. must be the line we are installing/releasing for that specific product, just any other production tooling, equipment, etc., etc. we already have.....

continue:

The validation of the effectiveness of the manufacturing process begins with the significant production run ( refer to the Chrysler, Ford, and General Motors Production Part Approval Process (PPAP) manual or the appropiate customer-specific requirements for additional details).

The minimum quantity for a significant production run is usually set by the customer, but can be exceeded by the organization's product quality planning team Output of the significant production run (product) is used for:

- Preliminary process capability study
.
.
.
- Production validation testing

Now it is more confusing, this seems like PV would be from parts build from PPAP or any other significant run, but we know significant run is most often PPAP...

I guess we need to have a pre-PPAP to build those units for PV

Any comment on this??
In actual practice, there is often something called a "pilot" run that's used for process validation purposes. It might be the case that the pilot run is sufficient for PPAP purposes, or there might still be some debugging to be done.

One potential significant difference between a pilot run and the PPAP Significant Production Run is that the customer is generally obliged to pay for the latter parts, assuming that they conform to the design record version in effect at the time of the run. This means that if the customer makes engineering changes and another run and PPAP submission is required, the customer still has to pay for the first batch of parts even if they're nonfunctional. Such is not generally the case with pilot/prototype runs.
 

radame

Starting to get Involved
#9
Re: Check the APQP manual for ammo

Thanks a lot for your response

My question was due the problem we have regarding the PV parts as we have different business units (automotive) and time fot PV is different between products

For some products just take 2 or 3 months to perform the PV and parts are comming from the PPAP build, for some others take almost 6 months that is why for that cases PV needs to start some time before the PPAP.

As I've been looking in different documents there is no specific rule about this, it depends more on the product characteristics or customer agreement, am I rigth?

Have a god weekend
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#10
Re: Check the APQP manual for ammo

Thanks a lot for your response

My question was due the problem we have regarding the PV parts as we have different business units (automotive) and time fot PV is different between products

For some products just take 2 or 3 months to perform the PV and parts are comming from the PPAP build, for some others take almost 6 months that is why for that cases PV needs to start some time before the PPAP.

As I've been looking in different documents there is no specific rule about this, it depends more on the product characteristics or customer agreement, am I rigth?

Have a god weekend
In general, the customer concern is the PPAP run and documentation. This might be different if you're a tier-1 supplier. APQP should follow the general requirements in the manual, but there is almost always flexibility as to specific methods.
 
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