Do we need a Gage R&R on Caliper used for Product Audits?

malkovics

Starting to get Involved
#1
Hello,

I would have a question, do we need apply an R&R on caliper if I use only during the product audit and not in the series production for process validation?

Thanks you support

regards
Farelco
 
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Miner

Forum Moderator
Staff member
Admin
#2
Re: Do we need make an R&R on caliper?

Do you intend to meet the requirements of ISO 9001 or TS16949? If yes, do you make decisions regarding the quality of product using the results of this gage? If yes, you must perform an MSA on the gage, typically a gage R&R. From your question regarding product audit, it appears that this is used for inspection, which means you should use the %Tolerance metric to determine acceptability.
 

malkovics

Starting to get Involved
#3
Re: Do we need make an R&R on caliper?

Thanks your fast response Miner.
Based on ISO TS I shall do MSA on measurement system which is in the PCP (process control plan).
The product audit is not part of the PCP but I agree with you that I should do GR&R if I make a decision regarding product quality used the results of measurement.
Another question: If I do measurement by calipper on 4 different points on the product then I should do GR&R for the all points one by one?

regards
Farelco
 

Miner

Forum Moderator
Staff member
Admin
#4
Re: Do we need make an R&R on caliper?

Another question: If I do measurement by calipper on 4 different points on the product then I should do GR&R for the all points one by one?
It depends. If the 4 points are similar you might be able to treat this as a family. Read my blog on MSA and gage families for ideas on this. Beware of combining dissimilar features (e.g., a linear dimension vs. a diameter) or different tolerance widths.
 

qusys

Trusted Information Resource
#5
Re: Do we need make an R&R on caliper?

Thanks your fast response Miner.
Based on ISO TS I shall do MSA on measurement system which is in the PCP (process control plan).
The product audit is not part of the PCP but I agree with you that I should do GR&R if I make a decision regarding product quality used the results of measurement.
Another question: If I do measurement by calipper on 4 different points on the product then I should do GR&R for the all points one by one?

regards
Farelco
Product audit should include Control Plan assessment. You should start from CP.
So, if this tools or the related measure is reported in the control plan , you should perform MSA in this case.:bigwave:
 

malkovics

Starting to get Involved
#6
Re: Do we need make an R&R on caliper?

Thanks that you share your related experience by blog. It was really fantastic and thought-provoking.

regards
Farelco
 

malkovics

Starting to get Involved
#7
Re: Do we need make an R&R on caliper?

Hello Gusys,

I cannot agree with you. Please show me such kind of document, rule which has mentioned that product audit should be put in the PCP (according to my best knowledge, it is not in the Core tools -APQP, FMEA, SPC, MSA, PPAP).
Thanks in advance

regards
Farelco
 

qusys

Trusted Information Resource
#8
Re: Do we need make an R&R on caliper?

Hello Gusys,

I cannot agree with you. Please show me such kind of document, rule which has mentioned that product audit should be put in the PCP (according to my best knowledge, it is not in the Core tools -APQP, FMEA, SPC, MSA, PPAP).
Thanks in advance

regards
Farelco
Hi Farelco,
probably I was not so clear in my previous post.
Based upon yuour post, I only said that one of method to do the product audit is for example to start from a control plan of device/product under the scope of the audit.
In this sense, you can verify at sampling the measurements have been done according to the control plan, application of the reaction mechanism have been done according to what established in the CP and so on.
This to responde to 8.2.2.3 of the ISO TS . Clearly you shall also audit shipping , packing and so on
Said that , if in the control plan you find that you did not perform MSA on some gauges reported in it, this coud be a non conformity.
Hope to have been clearer now.
If other Covers could clarify, pls go:bigwave:
 
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