Do you have a Turtle Diagram for each Core Process? Turtle Diagram Question

[Jen Kirley]

This is a good discussion.

I bristle when I read about a consultant that insists on having turtle diagrams because they really aren't necessary tools.

But they are useful, in my view not to simply have, but to develop with key process people. People don't spring from the egg understanding and knowing how to manage the aspects of management systems: inputs, outputs, metrics, equipment, materials, documentation etc. I have found it very useful to get top process people in a room and facilitate the building of their turtle diagram. The result of the session was a better understanding of how their process functioned in the QMS, and an enhanced readiness to be auditees for their first registration audit.

In other words, it's not about the destination - it's about the journey. If your consultant did this to make the turtles, I would feel pleased. If he just asked a bunch of questions and wrote the stuff down for you, I would feel disappointed.

 

[AndyN]

Re: Turtle Diagram Question

Andy,

Excellent article.

What is the difference between a "Turtle Chart" and a "Fish-bone"?

If you recall, fish-bone used to be called 4M. Fish-bone became 6M, 8M... and then some mixed it with 5 Why....

Your "football" follows the same path of evolution and growth of turtle.

A turtle was initially designed for small scope processes by Phillip Crosby. A Product Realization turtle is useless, but processing customer complaint turtle is more useful. The smaller the scope of a process that needs to be defined, the more value you get out of turtle. Similarly, a fish-bone for "soldering defects" is useless. But, a fish-bone for "solder ball" for a particular material, product and/or process setting is very useful.

Thanks, Michelle! I'm a bit leery of Turtles, since they don't reveal the non-value added (and hence less effective) aspects of a process. Using a Turtle is a lost opportunity to see waste (lack of effectiveness) unlike the use of a process map or spaghetti diagram. I can see that they help open the eyes of auditors who never 'visualized' a process (I ONLY learned process, thankfully).

When using a turtle, it still takes a smart/experienced auditor to know when to pull a particular inquiry out of one of the four 'buckets' (Materials, Methods etc.) at the correct time. My football attempts to drive the auditor to think about that when completing their audit strategy.

 

[michellemmm]

Re: Turtle Diagram Question

Thanks, Michelle! I'm a bit leery of Turtles, since they don't reveal the non-value added (and hence less effective) aspects of a process. Using a Turtle is a lost opportunity to see waste (lack of effectiveness) unlike the use of a process map or spaghetti diagram. I can see that they help open the eyes of auditors who never 'visualized' a process (I ONLY learned process, thankfully).

When using a turtle, it still takes a smart/experienced auditor to know when to pull a particular inquiry out of one of the four 'buckets' (Materials, Methods etc.) at the correct time. My football attempts to drive the auditor to think about that when completing their audit strategy.

I agree with your assessment about the limitations of turtle. It is a simple tool to help define and examine processes. This tool is mainly used for auditing. I subscribe to Phillip Crosby's principles of quality; that is quality must be definable, measurable, and obtainable by the person who is performing the task. Turtle can be viewed as one of the tools that can be used by the person performing the task to achieve quality.

Turtles can help auditors transition from conformance auditing to performance assessment...I personally do not use the turtle for auditing. A skilled auditor does not need check lists or turtle chart.

 

[Big Jim]

Re: Turtle Diagram Question

We attempted to go to Rev. C during out previous certification audit and eventually aborted and went back to Rev. B certification. The main issue was due to these turtle diagrams. The auditor we had was hung up on the fact that we did not have any in place and was not interested in our procedures which clearly outline our processes. The auditor was intent on seeing these diagrams.

I can't find a "shall" to hang a requirement for turtle diagrams on. If your auditor is insistent, ask him to explain the missed requirement. He can't. It isn't there. Place a call to your registrar and get him straightened out.

 

[dsanabria]

Re: Turtle Diagram Question

We attempted to go to Rev. C during out previous certification audit and eventually aborted and went back to Rev. B certification. The main issue was due to these turtle diagrams. The auditor we had was hung up on the fact that we did not have any in place and was not interested in our procedures which clearly outline our processes. The auditor was intent on seeing these diagrams.

I agree with Big Jim

I would go one step further - ask for a competent auditor! (replace the one you have).

The only remotely requirement is in AS9101 Form QMS Process Audit Report - Appendix D, and last time I checked - it doesn't look like a "Turtle Diagram"

Find an 3rd party / registrar that knows the AS9100 / AS9101 standards.

 

[Peter Fraser]

Re: Turtle Diagram Question

Give me some examples of inputs which come later in the process? What's your solution to that? It might be just the way you're looking at the diagram...

Andy

Off the top of my head - one example:

In Recruitment, your standard terms and conditions would not be used until you are making a job offer - ie long after you advertised the post, and carried out interviews, and took up references. And the references themselves fall into the same category - they specifically CANNOT be input until that (late) stage.

PS I like Michelle's interpretation of how a turtle may be of benefit in some (limited?) situations.

 

[michellemmm]

Re: Turtle Diagram Question

PS I like Michelle's interpretation of how a turtle may be of benefit in some (limited?) situations.

Unfortunately, people want to use the turtle chart as the book of "shalls"...

Turtle charts are the simplest tool that can be used in a company to unify the approach in defining who the customers are (internal and externals), who the suppliers are, and what they expect! Nine out of ten people don't know how important their jobs are...Nine out of ten managers don't see the consequence of supplying substandard tools and environment to their employees. Nine out of ten engineers start turtle chart by defining "Input" and tools rather than defining the vision or output. To put things in the correct prospective, I ask them; if you go to a restaurant, do you go to the kitchen and look inside the fridge before ordering your food or do you look at the menu?

People have so much problem with setting "metrics"...I have seen hundreds of people who ask what to measure. Most of them don't know what their employers are expecting from them. At the end of initial training, employees develop an excuse sheet that lists factors prevent them from doing a good job. They all consider themselves as over qualified..As they learn to communicate openly and honestly, the excuse list gets shorter. The same pattern of delusion can be observed when the executives are given the rating table in ISO 9004:2k. Their rating is inflated. When the rating is correlated with internal audit, they start opening their eyes.

Turtle charts should not be used as the book of shalls, because it is a tool to improve the process and maximize the output.

I also use the turtle chart when I coach in aligning company objectives and quality objectives and help individuals in decomposing quality objectives into bite size, achievable action plan.

My philosophy is: If you have a better way, do it!!! If you have a better tool, use it!!!

 

[AndyN]

Re: Turtle Diagram Question

Andy

Off the top of my head - one example:

In Recruitment, your standard terms and conditions would not be used until you are making a job offer - ie long after you advertised the post, and carried out interviews, and took up references. And the references themselves fall into the same category - they specifically CANNOT be input until that (late) stage.

PS I like Michelle's interpretation of how a turtle may be of benefit in some (limited?) situations.

OK Peter, so what would that example, as a process, look like? It sounds to me like it's an input to another process, one which occurs later. However, it would be better to see the actual process(es) you have in mind.
Peter you may not be thinking of this the way I imagined the football to work. The idea is to give a method for auditors to consider the fact that other processes (requirements) impact a process and to form some kind plan for dealing with it. In this case, it works better than a turtle. I didn't imagine it was perfect...

Given your conundrum, what's your solution? How would a turtle be used? What would make it any different?

 

[Peter Fraser]

Re: Turtle Diagram Question

OK Peter, so what would that example, as a process, look like? It sounds to me like it's an input to another process, one which occurs later. However, it would be better to see the actual process(es) you have in mind.
Peter you may not be thinking of this the way I imagined the football to work. The idea is to give a method for auditors to consider the fact that other processes (requirements) impact a process and to form some kind plan for dealing with it. In this case, it works better than a turtle. I didn't imagine it was perfect...

Given your conundrum, what's your solution? How would a turtle be used? What would make it any different?

Andy

I think we may be seeing a "process" in different ways. To me, the Recruitment process starts when someone realises that they need a new member of staff (someone leaves, they plan to expand...) and the objective is to appoint someone (ie the process ends when they have a new start in place).

I would define the process steps (see attached) and then consider the factors that may influence how the process works (resources needed, compliance issues, controls etc). I think that your football is doing this. I would then consider whether the required resources etc are in place.

The OP was asking about a turtle as a tool for auditing a process, I think. I would not suggest using one.

 

[EEJen]

Re: Turtle Diagram Question

We attempted to go to Rev. C during out previous certification audit and eventually aborted and went back to Rev. B certification. The main issue was due to these turtle diagrams. The auditor we had was hung up on the fact that we did not have any in place and was not interested in our procedures which clearly outline our processes. The auditor was intent on seeing these diagrams.

I suspect the request for Turtle Diagrams is coming from AATT classes for auditors because my coworker is under this impression these are required based on information from the class. My coworker also indicated there was confusion in the class including the instructor on "How to use a Turtle Diagram or other process mapping tools.

The class I took did not focus on process tools but on "How to Audit", the standard and rev changes to standard though it was not the AATT class.

I agree Turtle Diagrams are not required per the standard. Our plan is to use a modified SIPOC because it is easier for our team to use this format.

Next step - How to mitigate the risk of misaligned understanding of the standard between the registra and us. (7.1.2)