Document Control - Different documents which must be controlled not identified

S

sajeesh salim

#1
Hi bros,

I am new to this safety field:bigwave:.My companys integrated( iso 14001 and ohsas 18001) audit will be held on may 3 and 7. In the last audit the auditor made a comment about our document controll.The comment is this " the procedure for document control have been seen however their is not mentioned about the controlled documents,uncontrolled documents and confidential documents"
actually i could not understand what was the matter that he pointed and most horrible thing my management insist me to solve this issue before the next audit:argue:.The best part even my management also not aware about this issue:lol:

Please help me to solve the problem.Your supports will be appreciated..:agree:
 
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RoxaneB

Super Moderator
Super Moderator
#2
Welcome to the Cove, sajeesh salim.

Was the comment from the external auditor a nonconformance or simply an observation?

If it was a nonconformance, your organization should have responded to it after the audit with an action plan of some sort. Perhaps that will help you figure out what has already been done (if anything) and point you in some direction.

If it was merely an observation, no action is technically needed.

You could also contact your registrar, tell them you are new to the position and ask for more information on the comment. It could be something as simple as changing the existing procedure.
 
S

sajeesh salim

#3
It is a recommendation and we have to solve it otherwise in the next audit it will become a nonconformity.

The auditor's comment is exactly this "procedure for documentation and document control were seen in EHSMS, however controlled/uncontrolled/confidential document and list were not mentioned in the procedure.

I think the case is like this..in our document control procedure we have mentioned about controlled and uncontrolled documents as mentioned below and we have not mentioned the name of controlled and un-controlled documents.The auditor might commented to do the listing of the controlled and uncontrolled documents.what you all think about? am i right? or you have any other idea about this?


1.1 Controlled Copy

An identifiable copy of the Manual or its supporting procedures and instructions which is distributed, revised or replaced through a written Document Control Procedure which assures that the document reflects all current requirements.
4.7 Uncontrolled Copy

An identifiable copy of the Manual, Procedures or Work Instructions which is distributed through a Document Control Procedure but there is no assurance that later the document always reflects all current requirements. These shall be for information only and shall not be used as reference to perform work.


and finally one more question is that necessary to mention about controlled and uncontrolled documents in document control procedure?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
S

ssz102

#4
i don't understand your what's mean, however, i read the tittle again eventually understood;

back to the topic, the purpose of established ISO is ensuring the operation process don't confusion, so as long as you realise clearly this point, you will know how to handle the problem during inner audit or external audit;

for relevance to direct/ operate/ standard process documents shall be controlled, in the other words, these documents must be in the form of records in your organization; and updated,recovered,contorlled and so on, including documents from external parts or supplier

i don't know as this answer whether you can understand or not?
 

RoxaneB

Super Moderator
Super Moderator
#5
sajeesh salim said:
It is a recommendation and we have to solve it otherwise in the next audit it will become a nonconformity.
Taking into consideration the timing of your upcoming audits, I doubt that you will effectively solve this problem prior to the external visit. Still, if you develop a plan to address the recommendation, that might help your organization avoid a nonconformity being issued.

sajeesh salim said:
The auditor's comment is exactly this "procedure for documentation and document control were seen in EHSMS, however controlled/uncontrolled/confidential document and list were not mentioned in the procedure.
I don't believe you are required to have a LIST of your controlled/uncontrolled/confidential documents. However, you should have some clear means to determine if a document is controlled or not.

sajeesh salim said:
An identifiable copy of the Manual or its supporting procedures and instructions which is distributed, revised or replaced through a written Document Control Procedure which assures that the document reflects all current requirements.

1.1 Controlled Copy

An identifiable copy of the Manual or its supporting procedures and instructions which is distributed, revised or replaced through a written Document Control Procedure which assures that the document reflects all current requirements.

4.7 Uncontrolled Copy

An identifiable copy of the Manual, Procedures or Work Instructions which is distributed through a Document Control Procedure but there is no assurance that later the document always reflects all current requirements. These shall be for information only and shall not be used as reference to perform work.
Define "identifiable". What characterisitics or traits help a person to determine if the document in their hands is controlled or uncontrolled?

Some organizations say if the document has a non-black ink (e.g., red ink, blue ink, etc.) stamp on it, it is a controlled copy. Anything else is uncontrolled. Some organization say that ANY hard copy is uncontrolled...only electronic versions are controlled.

What your auditor may have been referring to is a list showing where controlled hard copies are located. This creates a system where you can easily, effectively (and hopefully efficiently) remove out-dated versions of procedures and replace them with the most current versions when procedures are updated.

Regarding confidentiality, I have seen organizations state that all documents are their property and are confidential in nature. They are not to be shared outside of the organization without permission from <insert suitable position or title here>. I don't believe this is a requirement of the standard, however.

sajeesh salim said:
and finally one more question is that necessary to mention about controlled and uncontrolled documents in document control procedure?
I do not understand what you mean by "mention", however, it's probably more appropriate to put their definitions in the procedure than in the quality/environment/safety manual. I suggest this because your employees are more likely to be exposed to the procedures than the manual.
 
S

sajeesh salim

#6
i don't understand your what's mean, however, i read the tittle again eventually understood;

back to the topic, the purpose of established ISO is ensuring the operation process don't confusion, so as long as you realise clearly this point, you will know how to handle the problem during inner audit or external audit;

for relevance to direct/ operate/ standard process documents shall be controlled, in the other words, these documents must be in the form of records in your organization; and updated,recovered,contorlled and so on, including documents from external parts or supplier

i don't know as this answer whether you can understand or not?
i understood what you meant...this is not the answer that i am looking for anyway thanks buddy:agree:
 
S

sajeesh salim

#7
Taking into consideration the timing of your upcoming audits, I doubt that you will effectively solve this problem prior to the external visit. Still, if you develop a plan to address the recommendation, that might help your organization avoid a nonconformity being issued.



I don't believe you are required to have a LIST of your controlled/uncontrolled/confidential documents. However, you should have some clear means to determine if a document is controlled or not.



Define "identifiable". What characterisitics or traits help a person to determine if the document in their hands is controlled or uncontrolled?

Some organizations say if the document has a non-black ink (e.g., red ink, blue ink, etc.) stamp on it, it is a controlled copy. Anything else is uncontrolled. Some organization say that ANY hard copy is uncontrolled...only electronic versions are controlled.

What your auditor may have been referring to is a list showing where controlled hard copies are located. This creates a system where you can easily, effectively (and hopefully efficiently) remove out-dated versions of procedures and replace them with the most current versions when procedures are updated.

Regarding confidentiality, I have seen organizations state that all documents are their property and are confidential in nature. They are not to be shared outside of the organization without permission from <insert suitable position or title here>. I don't believe this is a requirement of the standard, however.



I do not understand what you mean by "mention", however, it's probably more appropriate to put their definitions in the procedure than in the quality/environment/safety manual. I suggest this because your employees are more likely to be exposed to the procedures than the manual.

thanks beytee for your replay..:agree:
 
S

sajeesh salim

#8
Taking into consideration the timing of your upcoming audits, I doubt that you will effectively solve this problem prior to the external visit. Still, if you develop a plan to address the recommendation, that might help your organization avoid a nonconformity being issued.
can you give any guideline for me to implement such a plan?



I don't believe you are required to have a LIST of your controlled/uncontrolled/confidential documents. However, you should have some clear means to determine if a document is controlled or not.
A stamp of red ink with the wording " controlled copy" is chopped to all our controlled documents..Is this sufficient to meat the requirement?



Define "identifiable". What characterisitics or traits help a person to determine if the document in their hands is controlled or uncontrolled?

Some organizations say if the document has a non-black ink (e.g., red ink, blue ink, etc.) stamp on it, it is a controlled copy. Anything else is uncontrolled. Some organization say that ANY hard copy is uncontrolled...only electronic versions are controlled.
What your auditor may have been referring to is a list showing where controlled hard copies are located. This creates a system where you can easily, effectively (and hopefully efficiently) remove out-dated versions of procedures and replace them with the most current versions when procedures are updated
.

can i get any sample form to mention the name of controlled document and its location?


Regarding confidentiality, I have seen organizations state that all documents are their property and are confidential in nature. They are not to be shared outside of the organization without permission from <insert suitable position or title here>. I don't believe this is a requirement of the standard, however
.



I do not understand what you mean by "mention", however, it's probably more appropriate to put their definitions in the procedure than in the quality/environment/safety manual. I suggest this because your employees are more likely to be exposed to the procedures than the manual.
 

RoxaneB

Super Moderator
Super Moderator
#9
sajeesh salim said:
can you give any guideline for me to implement such a plan?
Develop a 5W1H - Who / What / When (start and end dates) / Where / Why / How. As for actions, only your organization can determine that. It might include steps to:

  • Identify where all of your controlled hard copies are or need to be
  • Develop or revise your existing document control procedure with the steps required to remove and replace outdated versions
  • The action for document authors to consider if controlled hard copies are truly needed and, if they are, how to have them added to the list of documents with hard copies out on the floor

sajeesh salim said:
A stamp of red ink with the wording " controlled copy" is chopped to all our controlled documents..Is this sufficient to meat the requirement?
It will probably work...but is the usage of the stamp stated in your procedure?

sajeesh salim said:
can i get any sample form to mention the name of controlled document and its location?
You can develop one easily enough. Include fields such as:
  • Name of Document
  • Document Code (if used at your organization)
  • Current Version
  • Location(s) of Controlled Hard Copies
  • Responsible for Updating Controlled Copies
  • Date Document Issued
  • Date Controlled Document Replaced

This can be a very simple process. Don't make it too complex!
 
S

sajeesh salim

#10
Develop a 5W1H - Who / What / When (start and end dates) / Where / Why / How. As for actions, only your organization can determine that. It might include steps to:

  • Identify where all of your controlled hard copies are or need to be
  • Develop or revise your existing document control procedure with the steps required to remove and replace outdated versions
  • The action for document authors to consider if controlled hard copies are truly needed and, if they are, how to have them added to the list of documents with hard copies out on the floor



It will probably work...but is the usage of the stamp stated in your procedure?



You can develop one easily enough. Include fields such as:
  • Name of Document
  • Document Code (if used at your organization)
  • Current Version
  • Location(s) of Controlled Hard Copies
  • Responsible for Updating Controlled Copies
  • Date Document Issued
  • Date Controlled Document Replaced

This can be a very simple process. Don't make it too complex!
Thank you very much sister. I will try this and may disturb you if any other confusion...anyway your support is appreciable:applause:..keep in touch..:agree:
 
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