Document Control ECO (Engineering Change Order) or QMS?

Q

QAMTY

#1
Hi all

While going deeper into the document control and products
I´m facing doubts as to what is the best way.

Under QMS 9000 2008

It is included the Control of documents, which I think in general covers the basics for any company.

But recently I found it may be useful to adopt ECO, which is
I think slightly different than how QMS considers the documents control.

I work in an engineering company producing equipment (pumps. heat recuperators, vessels, etc) and I think that in my opinion may fit the ECO
concept.

When specifically is better to adopt ECO´s? and when to
use control covered by QMS?

If choosing ECO´s, I may be running both concepts.?

When certifying to ISO, is there a disadvantage?

Thanks for your clarification
 
Elsmar Forum Sponsor
#2
Re: Document control ECO or QMS?

QMS 9000 2008 is?

I've used a version of an ECO to do document control/changes very effectively. One issue is that an ECO may have too many fields to be filled, so it's often better to use a specific document change note, which looks much like an ECO
 
Q

QAMTY

#3
Re: Document control ECO or QMS?

Thanks Andyn

So, you use both, and which for what kind of documents?
When you say, lot of fields to be filled, yuo mean to use an alternate ECO form or
to use other more simple control form , like that used under QMS?


Thansk
 
#4
ECO is used to make changes to Engineering/Design specs (it often has many 'boxes' on the form for things not affected by a simple document change, like what to do with the 'previous rev. parts' in stock etc, before the next rev is cut into Production)

A simpl(er) version can be used for QMS changes. I used both side by side. One for Engineering, one for QMS.
 
Q

QAMTY

#5
Thanks Andyn


How do you manage these 2 points:

I plan to use only one form called ECO
on the upper half page, the requester describes the change
and in the lower part of the same form the Enginneering rejects or accepts the change describing affected documents, this because, for my records
Ok I´ll have my list of ECO´s, which ones were rejected and which do not.

Dont´want to use two forms ECR and ECO because I think for the registering is tedious and time consuming.
suppose I receive an ECR, then if accepted , I have to raise an ECO with another number, then when I need to check the status, I have to go to see ECR´s and ECO´s
What is the purpose to use both ECR and ECO?

Then othe point, at what step of the ECO The closeout takes place?
is it used to close ECO´s?, because I´ve seen some forms which don´t
mention the closeout.

Thanks
 

Jen Kirley

Quality and Auditing Expert
Staff member
Admin
#6
Thanks Andyn


How do you manage these 2 points:

I plan to use only one form called ECO
on the upper half page, the requester describes the change
and in the lower part of the same form the Enginneering rejects or accepts the change describing affected documents, this because, for my records
Ok I´ll have my list of ECO´s, which ones were rejected and which do not.

Dont´want to use two forms ECR and ECO because I think for the registering is tedious and time consuming.
suppose I receive an ECR, then if accepted , I have to raise an ECO with another number, then when I need to check the status, I have to go to see ECR´s and ECO´s
What is the purpose to use both ECR and ECO?

Then othe point, at what step of the ECO The closeout takes place?
is it used to close ECO´s?, because I´ve seen some forms which don´t
mention the closeout.

Thanks
Your points about managing two numbering and tracking systems are valid and well made. If you can make your ECO form straightforward and easy to use, I see no reason why it can't be used for both engineering drawings and process documents.
 

Wes Bucey

Quite Involved in Discussions
#7
FWIW:
I used a single form for all document changes - any possible impact of the change was covered. If it didn't apply, the box was left unchecked. If it did apply, there was space for a description of the impact. All was done in the name of Configuration Management.
 
Q

QAMTY

#8
Thanks Wes

Well I have one for QMS documents and plan to use other
pro Engineering changes because I think there are a lot issues
around this area.

By using a simple ECO form trying to have control over
the request and in the same form including the revision the solution
and implementation, closing out the ECO when changes are done, but still
in doubt when the closeout have to be applied

When changes are done or when the changes resulted successful


Thanks
 

somashekar

Staff member
Super Moderator
#9
but still in doubt when the closeout have to be applied
When changes are done or when the changes resulted successful
When the changes are done, it is done with all the thought and application of its consequences. This is the closeout for you as I can visualize. I say this because it is a decision taken when we say DONE.
Changes must normally result in success. If not then you begin an other ECO process, and this time apply thought and consequence of the changes more technically, as you know more now what change considerations were missed.
As I said earlier, bad ECO's make more ECO's.

PS: An engineering change request can come to you in any form, and need not be in a prescribed form. Do not make your system complicated, rather make it work for you.
 

gdwaikle

Involved In Discussions
#10
This may be slightly off the topic of C/O's but I am working on a CAPA for a failed effectiveness check related to Engineer Orders or C/O's. They pulled a sample of several dozen C/O's and looked for errors such as:

1. Missing Part Number on redlines
2. Typographical errors
3. Incorrect redlines
4. Incorrect revision on Artwork
5. Incorrect Specifications
6. Inadvertent removal of CE mark
7. Vendor can?t print gridlines (Inadequate Design Transfer)
8. Missing DEHP symbol from finished labels
9. Sterilization Code inadvertently changed from GAMA to EO

My question is whether you can ever get 100% perfect C/O's with no mistakes? Since no process can ever be perfect, including generating Engineering Orders, what is an acceptable number of defects or errors. I can't think of a way you could ever Poka Yoke a change order system. Engineers are useally very careful but they too can occasionly make an error. :frust:
 
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