Document Control - old revision vs new revision

chita

Registered
#1
Hi all

I am looking for some ideas how to control the documents on the floor. The issue is that people making copy of forms and hiding somewhere. Then, we always seeing the old revision here and there. It doesn't matter, if we took everything out off the floor when we do the revision change. It will appear someday.

Anyone have idea how we can fix this?

We think

1) No copy, only print but then they will print more and hiding it anyway.
2) Provide the print copy and they can only pick up at the designate area. but then they can pickup more and hiding it.
3) Supervisor print for them at the time they need. but supervisor won't have time to do so as they will need every 2 or 3 hours x 3 shifts.

I would really appreciated your idea(s) or even share the system/method you are having now.

Thank you so much.
 
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Ninja

Looking for Reality
Trusted Information Resource
#2
Howdy,

There are a number of techniques described on various threads...have a search around the cove...

What we did was have controlled copies stamped with "Controlled Document" in red...and only those stamped red were considered official.
Photocopies turned the stamp black.

No matter how you handle doc control, it looks like your root issue is behavior.
It sounds like your most effective path is going to be to meet with management and supervisors to come up with a facility wide plan to change culture...

Without that, pretty much any technique will fail at some point.

The last approach I used was a pdf database with access privileges to see only current revs...and printing was locked out altogether.
Screen capture and powerpoint failed that approach too. If people want to break the system...it will break. Work on the culture change to stop people intentionally trying to break it.

:2cents:, HTH
 

chita

Registered
#3
Hi,
I agreed,
I was thinking of the " Controlled Document" stamp as well. May be this will be the only method we can do along with try to change the behavior as well.

Your help is appreciated.
 

Wes Bucey

Quite Involved in Discussions
#4
Hi,
I agreed,
I was thinking of the " Controlled Document" stamp as well. May be this will be the only method we can do along with try to change the behavior as well.

Your help is appreciated.
Howdy,

There are a number of techniques described on various threads...have a search around the cove...

What we did was have controlled copies stamped with "Controlled Document" in red...and only those stamped red were considered official.
Photocopies turned the stamp black.

No matter how you handle doc control, it looks like your root issue is behavior.
It sounds like your most effective path is going to be to meet with management and supervisors to come up with a facility wide plan to change culture...

Without that, pretty much any technique will fail at some point.

The last approach I used was a pdf database with access privileges to see only current revs...and printing was locked out altogether.
Screen capture and powerpoint failed that approach too. If people want to break the system...it will break. Work on the culture change to stop people intentionally trying to break it.

:2cents:, HTH
My consulting career is built on the premise "you can't idiot proof anything!" My solution is "change the idiots into smart people!" Essentially, this is Ninja's best suggestion: CHANGE THE CULTURE! Workers need to be brought into the fold to understand the damage to the company and, ultimately, their jobs if time, material, and labor is wasted on making products to obsolete documents. In short, the company needs a System of Profound Knowledge (SoPK)
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#5
My consulting career is built on the premise "you can't idiot proof anything!" My solution is "change the idiots into smart people!" Essentially, this is Ninja's best suggestion: CHANGE THE CULTURE! Workers need to be brought into the fold to understand the damage to the company and, ultimately, their jobs if time, material, and labor is wasted on making products to obsolete documents. In short, the company needs a System of Profound Knowledge (SoPK)
Sounds kinda like this.

As far as controlling forms is concerned, there is a simple solution: Stop doing it. Rather than controlling forms, create a controlled document that specifies the data that must be recorded. You can still create a form, but you don't have to worry about controlling it or obsolete copies being used.
 

Golfman25

Trusted Information Resource
#6
A couple of things. First, your people are hoarding forms likely because access to them is more difficult than ti should be. Figure out why and fix it.

Second, if you make changes to a form and people can still use the old form without being flagged, then what was the purpose of the change? Make sure you flag improper use of old forms early in the implementation of the new form.
 

Wes Bucey

Quite Involved in Discussions
#7
Ah yes, I remember that bit. The devil is in the DETAILS. Consultants get PAID to provide details. The big picture stuff is just the free bait. Of course, Deming's SoPK is studied and written about extensively. So anyone looking to do things on the cheap can take a few years off to read, study, and aggregate all the various writings and comments on SoPK to avoid paying a good consultant.
As far as controlling forms is concerned, there is a simple solution: Stop doing it. Rather than controlling forms, create a controlled document that specifies the data that must be recorded. You can still create a form, but you don't have to worry about controlling it or obsolete copies being used.
I believe the topic is DOCUMENTS (probably the working documents that forms become after data is filled in) So we really only care about the data which may be obsolete on any of those documents squirreled away. (workers do NOT like to take time away from a job that may be paying by piecework to traipse around for a new set of documents on a workpiece they've been making for years UNLESS management makes them aware the data has changed and following the old document leads to scrap [I think the "s" in that word is redundant.])

What some organizations have done is issue new, dated documents with each work order, so workers do not have to make a decision about fetching the proper revision for prints or specs. The inefficiency of issuing separate work orders and letting workers obtain prints, specs, materials only works in a highly expert craft shop making small quantities where the craftsman's skill is more valuable than a standard work procedure.
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#8
I believe the topic is DOCUMENTS (probably the working documents that forms become after data is filled in) So we really only care about the data which may be obsolete on any of those documents squirreled away.
From the OP: The issue is that people making copy of forms and hiding somewhere. I can't think of an instance where a completed form would become a "working document." Recorded data becomes a record and as such never becomes obsolete.
 
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Wes Bucey

Quite Involved in Discussions
#9
From the OP: The issue is that people making copy of forms and hiding somewhere. I can't think of an instance where a completed form would become a "working document." Recorded data becomes a record and as such never becomes obsolete.
So it is up to the OP to tell us what he REALLY means, since we have at least two different interpretations. (I believe with you, Jim, about recorded data from operations, which should be turned back for record keeping, not squirreled away in a worker's tool kit. I was thinking more of data like prints and specs which many workers performing "routine" operations will assume stay the same unless they are specifically alerted of a change.

As you are aware, we have numerous threads discussing change processes to assure ALL pertinent parties are aware of the change and have acknowledged adoption of the change and disposal of obsolete documents.
 

John C. Abnet

Teacher, sensei, kennari
#10
I will agree with @golfman25. Associates are not malicious by nature. I would assume that "...making copies and hiding somewhere..." is actually their effort to help and make the method more efficient (i.e. stop the need to find and print additional every time?). Once we understand what the associates need then we can usually find a solution that will satisfy them and the intent of the system.
Be well.
 
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