Document Formats: Text Procedures vs. Flow Charts (Process Maps)

M

Meera Hoosen

#21
As an auditor , I prefer flowcharts , rather that long winded procedures. Many of my customers are starting to use flowcharts with the conversion and some are using visio. If a flowchart is too vague then it is up to the auditor to use other auditing techniques to establish compliance.


According to the note2, ISO clause 4.2.1 , " the extent of QMS documentation........ a, b,c,

in the context of the above note , I would not reject a flowchart if it too vague, I would change my auditing techniques and maybe look at the competence of personnel for example., the size and complexity of proceses etc...

Note 3 must also be considered when auditing

If an auditor gives up uphill challenge him or her .

It is certainly the auditors call , however I believe that many auditors are not adequately trained to adapt their auditing techniques, they simply audit robotic fashion. An auditor must be able to adapt to the changing environment. It is up to the organisation to challenge the auditor and follow up with the advisory committee set up by the registrar in terms of the accrediation requirements.:eek: With regards to the transition many auditors are going to find themselves extinct before long if they don't adapt.

I love flowcharts, anytime:)
 
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Marc

Hunkered Down for the Duration with a Mask on...
Staff member
Admin
#22
Some years back (1996?) when I worked with Harley-Davidson in their ISO 9001 implementation, at York we got supervisors and managers together for a series of 3 meetings at the start of the project. The first meeting we discussed flow charts - what they are and the symbols and such. The we said now - go out and do this for your jobs. The next meeting we discussed what they had done - problems, whatever. The last scheduled meeting (well, scheduled at that time) was to bring in a refined version. Same deal - discuss, etc. Then it was "This is your due date." We held ad hoc meetings as necessary after that. That process of 'flow chart training' was a real help in the project.
 
J

JodiB

#23
Help help help - here's example

We've been talking about flowcharts vs. text, and in a separate thread there is the question of how does a process and a procedure look different. So here is something that might fit all three except that I have no measures included. (Do I have to have a paragraph for measures in every procedure? I used to but never really had anything to put into it so I removed the header)

Rip it apart. Really, I mean it. It has not gone to review yet and I would like to clean it up as much as possible.

We refer to the first overview chart as the Process Chart, and then the Procedure follows.

Does it meet snuff? Can you understand it? Enough info for a first-timer? Easy enough to find the bits you need to refer to if you are experienced but forget a particular? ( bookmarks...)

If we were to simply use the "process chart" and not the procedure, would it be sufficient detail to pass as a procedure (if we added responsibilities to the blocks) ?
 

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Marc

Hunkered Down for the Duration with a Mask on...
Staff member
Admin
#24
It looks fine to me.

I know they're hard to read (the data files are in micrografix flow charter and are in the ISO Implementation file set and in the Premium subscription access directory - plug) because these are 'html exports' from the data files -- but you 'll get the idea.

You really should take a read through some of the threads in the documentation forum. There is a lot there - people who link everything nad all that. You can go to real extremes. At one company I worked for, a big one, their document control people had pagers. When someone submitted a request for a document change via the intra net (the only way to change any document) their pagers would go off and would even receive, page by little page, the requested changes!

Now - if you want simple, see: Flow Chart examples (Old)

You have to look at supporting documentation, the degree of complexity of the process and such. Then ask yourself - is this sufficient for the job to be done?
 

Mike S.

Happy to be Alive
Trusted Information Resource
#25
Marc,

I got a little fired-up after I read your post, but I've calmed down. No, I'm not afraid to go outside, and I'm usually not afraid to call a spade a spade. Not knowing me, you'll just have to take my word on this one, but I have stood my ground in some tough quality situations where my job was at risk. One example: I once shut down a line making military parts that had run for years with "no problems" a week after I was given responsibility for it because I found that the "no problems" situation was due to -- shall we say "creative" -- liberties taken with the measurement data at times. This move immediately brought the wrath of a senior VP, my boss, and several other Managers down on me and, when I refused to give in to the pressure, almost immediately the customer, a major defense contractor, moved-in to our plant for a few weeks to "help". H*ll yes, I was worried sick (scared); the stakes were high -- at least to me, a "little guy" husband and father of 1 + 1 on the way. The "guilty" were moving to cover their tracks and improve their support network. My guts churned for weeks, I lost sleep, I had people who now hated me that I had to work with, and it d**n sure wasn't any fun. (I get half sick just reliving it for this story). But I thought it important enough to risk it at that time. Somehow, it all worked out for the most part and I kept my job (thankfully the Prez did not hate me), but things were never the same relationship wise. I left the company shortly afterward. There have been other, less dramatic "stands" as well.

So, I say all this not to chest-beat but to show you that I'm not (always) a shrinking violet or a sissy, but I try to live in the "real world". Look, like I said, you run a kind of "cost vs. benefit analysis" in almost everything you do (either consciously or unconsciously). Each of us have to ask, is it worth it to "go to the wall" on this one? Sometimes it is yes, sometimes no. Is life and death involved -- sure, you go to the wall. Is it otherwise a "big deal" to your or someone else -- yes, go to the wall. Is it a couple of bucks at stake or a chance at "exposing" someone who is or may be guilty of a bad call on a NC -- then maybe the potential risk (loss of your job, lots of $ spent defending yourself from a (possibly frivolous) lawsuit, etc.) ain't worth the "reward".

I admire your "balls" as you put it -- there are certainly braver and more principaled people in the world than me, and maybe (likely?) you are one of them. But I have no doubt in my mind that there are some situations where your "balls" would overrule your heart/head and decide for you that the risk vs. benefit analysis in this case means you walk away.

And you know what? I think there's no shame in that. JMHO

Mike S.
 
R

Randy Stewart

#26
What about it!?!?!?!?!?

Sometimes you choose your battles and sometimes they choose you. I agree with your risk analysis Mike but I also have to agree with Marc. I know for myself I have certain beliefs, morales, etc. that are not compromised no matter what the risk is to myself (I'm not going to drag someone else into my battle). I have the line drawn and that is that. There are other areas that I have given myself the liberty to assess the situation before acting / reacting, i.e. I see a guy beating up a woman - suburban mall I get involved, back street alley in downtown Detroit - sorry, but I'm not stopping. Someone trying to beat up on my wife or daughter - no questions, no hesitation.
This is probably true for most of us if not all. Sometimes we just don't know why we react the way we do.
:thedeal:
You just can't compromise your beliefs, because by doing so you are no longer being true to yourself. If you can't be true to yourself you can you be true to?
 

Mike S.

Happy to be Alive
Trusted Information Resource
#27
Re: What about it!?!?!?!?!?

Randy Stewart said:

Sometimes you choose your battles and sometimes they choose you. I agree with your risk analysis Mike but I also have to agree with Marc. I know for myself I have certain beliefs, morales, etc. that are not compromised no matter what the risk is to myself (I'm not going to drag someone else into my battle). I have the line drawn and that is that. There are other areas that I have given myself the liberty to assess the situation before acting / reacting, i.e. I see a guy beating up a woman - suburban mall I get involved, back street alley in downtown Detroit - sorry, but I'm not stopping. Someone trying to beat up on my wife or daughter - no questions, no hesitation.
This is probably true for most of us if not all. Sometimes we just don't know why we react the way we do.
:thedeal:
You just can't compromise your beliefs, because by doing so you are no longer being true to yourself. If you can't be true to yourself you can you be true to?
_____________________

Stew,

I think we mostly agree but let me give a friendly stir to the pot...

Are you not compromising your beliefs somewhat by not stopping to help the person getting beaten up in the Detroit alley? The belief that would stir you to action to help that stranger in trouble in a mall is, perhaps, that life is sacred and/or no fair beating up on women, etc. Why does that same belief not hold for the same woman who happens now to be in the Detroit alley? Is this not a compromise of your beliefs based on your split-second risk vs. reward analysis? Does it mean you no longer hold those beliefs in any situation if you walk away from that alley? I doubt it. Does it make you a bad person or a wimp? Not in my mind. It would take a truly exceptionally brave and heroic person to go into that alley. Maybe no one knows for sure if they would go in or not until presented with the situation (God forbid) in real-life.

I'm NOT saying I would do anything differently than you in that scenerio -- but I can't see how it is not a compromise, albiet one many would make. I think it proves my point.

Mike S.
 

Marc

Hunkered Down for the Duration with a Mask on...
Staff member
Admin
#28
Let's not loose sight of the fact that this started over a registrar supposedly saying "It's the auditor's call" when a finding was appealed - which, it turned out, was heresay. But, were it a witnessed fact, I can see no reason for a lawsuit if someone 'revealed' the experience. I can see that the registrar might blackball someone.

My point, and why I got off like I did, is that I believe it is a sad commentary if consultants and companies are too cowed to speak out about their experiences - good or bad - including the names of the registrar.
 

Mike S.

Happy to be Alive
Trusted Information Resource
#29
Marc said:

Let's not loose sight of the fact that this started over a registrar supposedly saying "It's the auditor's call" when a finding was appealed - which, it turned out, was heresay. But, were it a witnessed fact, I can see no reason for a lawsuit if someone 'revealed' the experience. I can see that the registrar might blackball someone.

My point, and why I got off like I did, is that I believe it is a sad commentary if consultants and companies are too cowed to speak out about their experiences - good or bad - including the names of the registrar.
Okay, agreed. We'd all love to see true, unbiased reports on registrars and their good/bad qualities and we'd all love it if this could be done.:truce:

But, hypothetical situation: Let's say you had personally experienced the goofy registrar in question. You fire them and say you're gonna report the experience here on the Cove. They say, "do it and we'll sue your for $1,000,000". Let's say they are the biggest registrar there is -- lots of financial strength and several bored lawyers just looking for something to do. You are 99% sure you'd win the suit, but your lawyer (or maybe you were playing golf with a lawyer) says it'll cost you $150,000 in legal fees to fight them and win the case and you might not get it back. Imagine the stress, etc. Do you report it anyway, or just say it ain't worth the risk and keep quiet?

I don't want you to answer here, just think about it. Is it worth it?

Okay, I'm gonna let this dog sleep now. :) I guess I just like to provoke thought sometimes. This forum provokes enough thoughts in me!

Mike S.:smokin:
 

barb butrym

Quite Involved in Discussions
#30
geeze

this certainly took a turn since I last checked in...LOL.....into lawsuits and ethics and such....all from a narrow minded auditor and unresponsive registrar conversation over a document format and semantics. WOW

I choose my battles very carefully...and my registrars.

As an auditor I would expect my registrar to back me up, and allow me the freedom to represent them based on their philosophies/policy...however if i overstepped/misinterpreted those policies I would expect them to correct the matter with the client and educate me in the error of my ways....both diplomatically of course.

As the consultant or company i would expect the same.

As the registrar I would expect a complaint from the client on a situation such as this. I would expect the client to be as professional with the complaint as I would be in my response. I would not respond that it is the auditors call.......It is NOT the auditors call....it would be the registrars policy....auditors from the same registrar need to be consistent.
 
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