Document Numbering System For ISO/Quality Management Document vs. All Other Documents

rogerpenna

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#31
You can use an old revision on purpose. That doesn´t seem the question. The problem seems to be using an old revision by ACCIDENT, because you don't know there was a new revision. That seems to be the major objective of having revision numbers on documents and forms, right?

Suppose you have 30 forms already printed. A new form is issued, with more fields for information that now is considered important. But just looking at it you wouldn´t notice the new fields among a multitude of fields.

If you have revision number, you know your 30 printed forms still left are outdated and shouldn´t be used anymore.

------------------------------

As for paper vs computer systems, suppose the head of a Planning department goes to another company and the next day, other 3 department people, who used to share ride to the office, die in a car crash.


New people are hired. How should they know what procedures apply to their department just by title? There may be several procedures with name planning that have nothing to do with the planning department, as well as Planning department procedures without planning in the name.

Also, just by title, they may end up with a mix of procedures, work instructions, diagrams, etc, when doing a search. Now imagine a mix of different types of documents plus documents that don´t belong to their department as well as docs that do but did not appear in the search.

If you have a code, they go in the computer system and search for the code PLAN. Only documents belong to PLANNING department show. Oh, but they do want PLANNING PROCEDURES only. PR-PLAN in the search box.

Of course, you can also create tons of folders, but it's about the same as using codes and acronyms.


And if you use folders, you cannot move away from folders, like for example, if you want to organize your company by PROJECT and have different documents in each PROJECT FOLDER, but each document in a project folder belonging to different areas/departments working on the project.


ps: sorry for the caps. I should use italics or bold for emphasis, but pressing the shift key with my little fingers it's much faster and easier, so I got used beyond repair to it.
 
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#32
In project-driven organization’s the corporate system documents may be adopted and modified for project use simply by putting the project code in front of the document code.

The document’s status (“draft for review” or “approved for use”) may be shown as letters or numbers in parentheses at the end of each document’s unique alphanumeric code. Obviously this must be omitted when cross referencing docs as one does for processes that interact.

Example: 9711-PR-PM-01(A)

Design the document coding scheme early so unique codes are available for use from the beginning of your system development project.
 

rogerpenna

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#34
Do they? Outdated form use comes from ineffective document control, not revision numbers on things.
well, it seems to be an effective document control is exactly dependent on revision numbers. Innefective document control is an effect, not a cause.
- why was X department using outdated forms? : because they didn´t notice there was a new form available
- why they didn´t notice there was a new form available? : because of ineffective document control
- why is document control ineffective? : because they scrapped revision numbers, so one can´t know if the pre-printed documents still match the current revision.


if you disagree, please, elaborate further on how to have effective document control without revision numbers, so I can decide to eliminate revision numbers and yet still get my ISO certificate when the Bureau Veritas Auditor starts an inquisition on me. :)

I am a Quality newbie, not two years on the area yet, but if I don´t formulate my thoughts on why what you said seems wrong, you won't know where I am going wrong and correct me and the answer may just become a little vague, like your previous one was to me.
 
#35
if you disagree, please, elaborate further on how to have effective document control without revision numbers, so I can decide to eliminate revision numbers and yet still get my ISO certificate when the Bureau Veritas Auditor starts an inquisition on me.
I'm looking at the dollar bills in my wallet and can't see any revision numbers on them... Apparently, everyone in my office has the same revision...
 

rogerpenna

Involved In Discussions
#36
I'm looking at the dollar bills in my wallet and can't see any revision numbers on them... Apparently, everyone in my office has the same revision...
well, afaik, old bills are allowed to circulate almost forever. If you find a 50 yr old $50 dollar bill in your late father's wallet, is it still worth it? Probably yes. When it reaches the bank, their serial number (so yes, they sort of have a revision number) will identify them as old and probably sent to the central bank to be exchanged by new ones.

not sure this is the best analogy as an old bill won´t cause a problem nor a non-conformity.
 
#37
No, old bills aren't allowed to circulate forever (at least here in the US and in the UK). If it's a $20US then if it doesn't pass the pen test (counterfeit testing - which the previous ones don't) you can't use them. The serial number is a counterfeiting control, nothing to do with revision control, since you nor I can tell what we've got from that number alone. The "worth" of the bill isn't the point of discussion. It's whether you a) need to identify documents by a complex numbering system and if a revision number is needed for effective document control - to which my answer (based on 40 years of doing such systems) - is "no". I can't answer for any CB auditor of course, except to say that I've audited countless document control systems such as you espouse and commonly find they are ineffective because those "hall marks" may confuse some auditors, but they don't make effective controls.
 

rogerpenna

Involved In Discussions
#38
Bills don´t circulate forever exactly because they are taken out of circulation. But they are taken out of circulation EXACTLY because they circulate and reach places that check their revision.

And yes, the serial number IS used as revision number (and also for counterfeiting, as the number also uniquely identifies each bill)
What Does the Series Mean on a Dollar Bill?

"New series of dollar bills are issued when there are changes to the design of the bill, a new secretary of the treasury or a new treasurer of the United States. "

The difference with bills is that they circulate. When a new revision is released, old revisions are allowed to circulate, until they reach a bank, which will send them to central bank to be exchanged for new bills. I think that's the process. But old bills are not non conform usually. They are valid.

"The other answers here are all good. The important thing is that all paper money ever issued by the USA is always good and exchangeable for currency of equal face value. "
https://www.quora.com/Are-1990s-dollar-bills-still-valid

And how the banks take out of circulation old bills? Exactly by knowing their revision number. (the serial number, which uniquely identify each of them AND their batch/revision)




So, by that analogy, we would need to have all records circulating in the company until they reach QMS who will have people checking the revision NUMBER of the form used to fill the record.

if revision number is wrong, new form would be sent to the original department who filled the form, to refill the form using new version.

STILL a system to identify the old from new forms would be needed... by using revision number.
 
Last edited:

rogerpenna

Involved In Discussions
#39
The serial number is a counterfeiting control, nothing to do with revision control, since you nor I can tell what we've got from that number alone
Yes, we can´t tell. But banks can.

In a company, with access to a Doc System, the employee can tell what they have got based on the number on the printed document and the one in the document control system
 
#40
Yes, they are good - but you can't use them for their intended purpose - for cash transactions! You have to return them to a bank. The "series" stuff is about product traceability.
 
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