Documentation problem: Is it sales or purchasing or both?

Q

qualitygal

#1
I have a client that assembles and distributes (wholesale) valves. They have a purchasing department and a sales department. The purchasing department buys the components for assembly. If a customer needs modification to the valves they are purchasing, welding, machining etc., the sales department "purchases" the subcontractor services. I am writing the procedures and work inst. for the purchasing department and I wondered if I should include the subcontractor purchases by sales in the purchasing procedures or as a function of the sales department. We already know this will be two sep. procedures but who's responsibility does it really fall under? Isn't this more a 7.2.1 than 7.4?:mg:

Thanks in advance for all of your help. Qualitygal
 
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Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#2
Re: Documentation problem: Is it sales or purchsing or both?

I have a client that assembles and distributes (wholesale) valves. They have a purchasing department and a sales department. The purchasing department buys the components for assembly. If a customer needs modification to the valves they are purchasing, welding, machining etc., the sales department "purchases" the subcontractor services. I am writing the procedures and work inst. for the purchasing department and I wondered if I should include the subcontractor purchases by sales in the purchasing procedures or as a function of the sales department. We already know this will be two sep. procedures but who's responsibility does it really fall under? Isn't this more a 7.2.1 than 7.4?:mg:

Thanks in advance for all of your help. Qualitygal
The sales process should include the need to properly get requirements from the customer, who says, "I need model Z, but with two holes drilled in the Henderson flange," along with whatever specific information is needed. Purchasing can then contract for the necessary services. This should be considered a normal business process, and not something that's done to satisfy the standard. If the processes are designed so that customer requirements are reflected in the finished product, it doesn't matter which clause is applicable.
 

Coury Ferguson

Moderator here to help
Staff member
Super Moderator
#3
Re: Documentation problem: Is it sales or purcahsing or both?

I have a client that assembles and distributes (wholesale) valves. They have a purchasing department and a sales department. The purchasing department buys the components for assembly. If a customer needs modification to the valves they are purchasing, welding, machining etc., the sales department "purchases" the subcontractor services. I am writing the procedures and work inst. for the purchasing department and I wondered if I should include the subcontractor purchases by sales in the purchasing procedures or as a function of the sales department. We already know this will be two sep. procedures but who's responsibility does it really fall under? Isn't this more a 7.2.1 than 7.4?:mg:

Thanks in advance for all of your help. Qualitygal

Are we talking about ISO9001:2000?

If we are: Looking at both paragraphs, I believe it would fall under section 7.4, Purchasing, and paragraph 7.2.1 (b) but not sales, unless defined by the organizational authority via a W/I or procedure. Only because a "service (product)" is being purchased/procured, in my opinion.
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#4
Re: Documentation problem: Is it sales or purcahsing or both?

Are we talking about ISO9001:2000?

If we are: Looking at both paragraphs, I believe it would fall under section 7.4, Purchasing, and paragraph 7.2.1 (b) but not sales, unless defined by the organizational authority via a W/I or procedure. Only because a "service (product)" is being purchased/procured, in my opinion.
7.2.1(b) pertains to requirements not stated by the customer...but qualitygal says that customers need modifications. How will anyone know that modifications are necessary if the customer doesn't tell anyone? It seems to me that if Sales is writing the order, they will need to take note of the special requirements, which is 7.2.1(a). Note that 7.2.1 doesn't specify who or which department is responsibile; so long as the job gets done according to the requirements, it doesn't matter as far as the standard is concerned.
 

al40

Quite Involved in Discussions
#5
I have a client that assembles and distributes (wholesale) valves. They have a purchasing department and a sales department. The purchasing department buys the components for assembly. If a customer needs modification to the valves they are purchasing, welding, machining etc., the sales department "purchases" the subcontractor services. I am writing the procedures and work inst. for the purchasing department and I wondered if I should include the subcontractor purchases by sales in the purchasing procedures or as a function of the sales department. We already know this will be two sep. procedures but who's responsibility does it really fall under? Isn't this more a 7.2.1 than 7.4?:mg:

Thanks in advance for all of your help. Qualitygal
I think it should be handled from a "team concept" I would identify the process holder and get them involved and then all the parties the document may effect also is the process mapped?

Best regards,
Al
 
Q

qualitygal

#6
Re: Documentation problem: Is it sales or purchsing or both?

I understand what you are saying but the "problem" is that sales is contracting those services not the purchasing department.
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#7
Re: Documentation problem: Is it sales or purchsing or both?

I understand what you are saying but the "problem" is that sales is contracting those services not the purchasing department.
I'm sorry, I misread the intitial question :bonk:

It's still "purchasing" even if Purchasing isn't doing it. Note that the standard calls for a process approach, which by definition frowns on processes being impeded by department walls. It doesn't say anything about which department must fulfill individual requirements. I think maybe the problem is with your documentation strategy.
 
Q

qualitygal

#8
Re: Documentation problem: Is it sales or purchsing or both?

You may be right about that. I think we should consider a flowchart or swimlane interaction. And that has been discussed. I just needed some props from my learned colleagues. If you guys have any suggestions for the documentation of this let me know.
 

Sidney Vianna

Post Responsibly
Staff member
Admin
#9
Re: Documentation problem: Is it sales or purchsing or both?

I understand what you are saying but the "problem" is that sales is contracting those services not the purchasing department.
And that is why the Standard emphasizes a PROCESS approach to the QMS. As long as organizations are constrained by departmental feuds, implementing a modern QMS is extra painful.
 

Coury Ferguson

Moderator here to help
Staff member
Super Moderator
#10
Then it appears that paragraph 7.4 is the guiding paragraph?

I with you Jim regarding that it should be under the authority of Purchasing, unless otherwise specified (W/I or Procedure).

Well I guess 7.2.1 (b) wouldn't apply :bonk:
 
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