Documentation Reduction - Over Documented ISO 9001:2000 QMS

atitheya

Quite Involved in Discussions
#11
I completely agree with Coury Ferguson and Greg B.

Apart from 6 mandatory procedures as stated in the standard, one must review the processes to determine the need and the critical ones should be documented, specially for those that have been delegated downline.

Remember documentation also brings in consistency and are a medium of instruction and information transfer.
 
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RoxaneB

Super Moderator
Super Moderator
#13
My site is doing things rather backwards...but let's just blame "corporate" shall we? ;)

We are required to assess all key tasks/processes and ensure that they are standardized (including documented).

Fortunately, or unfortunately, we've been registered to ISO 9001 since mid-1998 so we've had documentation in existence for some time. We listed all processes, sub-processes and tasks. And then ranked them against our "6 Dimensions of Quality" as well as importance and performance in the ability to meet the requirements of the stakeholder(s).

Anything that scored above a designated trigger point was deemed "key" (we will not use the word 'critical') and thus documentation was required. We already have the documentation in place.

Additionally...but somewhat off topic...

The matrix is reviewed and updated on an annual basis - rather a 'makes work' project, but I undersand what the objective is so I won't complain too loudly. ;) Assessing the standard to those who perform the process/task is done on a scheduled basis and the standard may be updated as a result of that assessment...this is a wonderful communication method between the supervisor and the operator...and reduces the amount of "document review" done during an internal audit.
 

atitheya

Quite Involved in Discussions
#14
Thanks Jim,

I stand corrected. The wording of the sentence should've been "Documentation helps in maintaining (or bringing in) consistency..." This would apply particularly in a company where similar operations are spread through different units (also maybe geographically distant) or involve different people in the same process where these documents maybe used for training / retraining and reference material.

Regards
 
G

Greg B

#15
Additionally...but somewhat off topic...
The matrix is reviewed and updated on an annual basis - rather a 'makes work' project, but I undersand what the objective is so I won't complain too loudly. ;) Assessing the standard to those who perform the process/task is done on a scheduled basis and the standard may be updated as a result of that assessment...this is a wonderful communication method between the supervisor and the operator...and reduces the amount of "document review" done during an internal audit.
I totally agree that the "review" should be taken out of the AUDIT!! In the early days I seemed to be doing more reviewing than auditing. I think I could run the plant due to the fact that i have read and reviewed every doucment and procedure:D
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#16
Thanks Jim,

I stand corrected. The wording of the sentence should've been "Documentation helps in maintaining (or bringing in) consistency..." This would apply particularly in a company where similar operations are spread through different units (also maybe geographically distant) or involve different people in the same process where these documents maybe used for training / retraining and reference material.

Regards
Absolutely:agree1:
 

gpainter

Quite Involved in Discussions
#17
There several threads that go over this issue. KISS, I used a simple system that has passed audits. Over documentation is essentially a waste. Train, train, train.... We had some instances where things were not being done properly causing some extra work, so it was decided that we needed a WI on this and as you would guess it did not help.
 

RoxaneB

Super Moderator
Super Moderator
#18
There several threads that go over this issue. KISS, I used a simple system that has passed audits. Over documentation is essentially a waste. Train, train, train.... We had some instances where things were not being done properly causing some extra work, so it was decided that we needed a WI on this and as you would guess it did not help.
Okay, please keep in mind as you read my response to this...I fully recognize that every organization is difficult and what works for one company will not always work for another....

First off, deciding that it was the lack of a WI was a root cause analysis that didn't dig deep enough. But please don't blame the WI for not solving the problem. ;)

Secondly, training is all well and good - I'm a firm believer in the benefits of On-The-Job training - however, what happens when people start to retire? How do you help to continue a consistently performed process?

Somewhere on the Cove is the story about the monkeys in a cage with a bunch of bananas hanging down. As people leave, there should be some form of media for retaining the technical knowledge of the process. A documented process helps in this area.

A documented process is also great for companies who have activities such as standards/process auditing and job/task observations (i.e., safety focus). It provides a clear checklist to the auditor to ensure that all is performed as documented or, even better, the operator has a clear way of showing how a document should be modified to match the current process.

I'm not saying document everything. Far from it. But those processes which are key to your system and the organization's ability to consistent (and continually) meet Stakeholders' requirements, a documented process will greatly assist in the ability to retain knowledge about the process.
 
P

potdar

#19
If you are really serious about reducing the size of your documentation, firstly ensure two aspects -

Your management supports you fully in the task.

You have sufficient time on hand. (Define sufficient)

If both stand true, start defining your system on a process model from scratch. Involve the system users in the task. You may use portions of the existing system that you find useful.

When you are ready, SCRAP the existing the system and intoduce the new system. Modification is a waste.
 

RoxaneB

Super Moderator
Super Moderator
#20
Your management supports you fully in the task.
This is true for any project.

potdar said:
You have sufficient time on hand. (Define sufficient)
To determine this, one needs to plan ahead.

potdarIf both stand true said:
start defining your system on a process model from scratch. Involve the system users in the task.[/B] You may use portions of the existing system that you find useful.

When you are ready, SCRAP the existing the system and intoduce the new system. Modification is a waste.
Pardon me? Modification is hardly a waste! Even your paragraph before this states "...existing system...useful." Not to mention, how much support will be given from the users if they happen to like the system (or portions of it)? People don't like change...implementing something brand new can be very scary for the users. Toss in the resource requirements to implement something brand new...money, people, training, supplies.

Be very careful if this option is taken.

Scrapping a system is hardly effective option. I admit, for some situations, it may be necessary, but hardly for a case of over-documentation.
 
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