Documentation to Flow Chart - Too many documents

J

johnnybegood

#1
Anyone have revised thier documentation from the 1994 ISO to 2000 ISO version. Our documentation system were based on 1994 version and during the recent ISO audit (ISO9001:2000) the auditor commented that there were just too many document that we are using. Now our management wants us the QMS to revised and simplify our documentation. We have 21 quality system procedure, about 100 of quality system instruction, few hundred of manufacturing process specification. We plan to simply all of them into process flow only retaining the '6' document as required by ISO. But we do not know how to start.
 
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#2
johnnybegood said:
We plan to simply all of them into process flow only retaining the '6' document as required by ISO. But we do not know how to start.
I would advice a bit of caution here. Don't get me wrong, I think process maps are a great tool, but you will probably need some explaining text as well (IMO). You may also need to look out with the six required documents:

ISO9001:2000 said:
The quality management system documentation shall include
....
d) documents needed by the organization to ensure the effective planning, operation and control of its processes,
That can and usually does mean that you need more than just the big six.

Some similar threads:

Can Quality Procedures be in Flowchart format?
Formats: Text Procedures vs. Flow Charts
Document Flow Chart Help Needed
Examples of Process Mapping and Quality Procedures
Does ISO 9001:2000 Specifically Require Process Maps?
Are we required by ISO 9001:2000 to have process maps for each department?

/Claes
 

Wes Bucey

Quite Involved in Discussions
#3
Claes Gefvenberg said:
I would advice a bit of caution here. Don't get me wrong, I think process maps are a great tool, but you will probably need some explaining text as well (IMO). You may also need to look out with the six required documents:

That can and usually does mean that you need more than just the big six.

Some similar threads:

Can Quality Procedures be in Flowchart format?
Formats: Text Procedures vs. Flow Charts
Document Flow Chart Help Needed
Examples of Process Mapping and Quality Procedures
Does ISO 9001:2000 Specifically Require Process Maps?
Are we required by ISO 9001:2000 to have process maps for each department?

/Claes
let me add in "shameless commerce" that I note the ad column to the right side of this page has "picked up" the topic and offers ads for flow chart ware. [added as edit: I have looked at this thread three times and each time the ads change - it may have been pure coincidence that they had three flow chart software ads when I first viewed the thread.]

Let me further suggest that "too many documents" is very subjective. Without knowing the content of the documents in conjunction with the business of your operation, a comment based on the sheer number of documents alone is "irresponsible" at best and "incompetent" at worst.

The theme of Quality Standards has evolved to "process" thinking. Therefore, knee-jerk reaction by many is that the only way to present or depict documentation is via flow charts. This is like saying the only way to express a speech is by the means of PowerPoint.

Continuing the analogy - some PowerPoint users cripple themselves and their audiences by merely reading the slides out loud to the audience (I guess this works for blind or illiterate audiences), omitting all the nuances and details behind the bullet points on the slide. Similarly, in their rush to give an instantly comprehensible overview, flow chart creators often omit the details of an operation which mean the difference between success and failure. Recently, we had a post which reproduced a 1952 era work instruction for sweeping. If your documentation is that obsessive in detail, perhaps it needs updating, but don't go overboard in the other direction.

Updating documentation is fine, but make sure it reflects the true operation and serves the business purpose of the organization, rather than throwing the baby out with the bathwater in some mad rush to leap when some outsider says "Jump!"
 
Last edited:
S

SteelWoman

#4
johnnybegood said:
We plan to simply all of them into process flow only retaining the '6' document as required by ISO. But we do not know how to start.
We changed this year from QS to TS, but had a similar project before us, and tried to approach our old QS documents from a TS perspective of only the "required 6" and look at, "Okay, OTHER than the six we MUST have, what do we really NEED to have to keep everything running well and ensure high quality?" In going through each document and looking at it that way, we found an astounding number of documents and procedures that we ended up either flat out discarding or combining with some other procedure or document. Now that said, our procedure manual would still cause cranial damage if I flung it at your head, but we were able to decide some of the items we were accustomed to using were "nice" but not "necessary," and their elimination would in no way endanger the quality system OR our product quality.

Hope that helps.
 
#5
For ISO9K2K refer back to 4.1;establish,document,implement and maintain and a - f. How you organize your system is entirely up to you.

For TS2; the same applies, however it must stand up to the automotive approach to auditing.

Ask your auditor to show you the clause that refers to having too many procedures.
 
M

mshell

#7
I agree with Claeus be careful when creating the flowcharts or you could end up with a 6 page chart that no one can follow.

We use flowcharts and support text in our documents and it seems to work well as we cater to the learning/comprehension style of everyone.
 
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