Documents of External Origin - Approaching & Satisfying this Requirement?

Marc

Hunkered Down for the Duration with a Mask on...
Staff member
Admin
#11
For our case it is vital that the catalogues the surveyors use are not only the latest version, but also the appropriate version, and this is an important part of our document control.
Are we talking about a sales catalogue? If so I suggest yours is a rare case.
 
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J

James Gutherson

#12
Yes, typically these are sales catalogues because it is much easier to get a sales brouchure fram an agent than a technical reference from a supplier.

I think our case might be a special case because of the shear number of different suppliers we need to keep track of (not suppliers to us, but suppliers to our customers, the boat owners) and our lack of control over what is used. Just thinking about it then, it would be nice if we had a system like QS9000, where all suppliers to us could only source from controlled suppliers (tier 3), but then as a government department we get into restriction of trade issues etc.

James G
 
H

hariharakumarm - 2009

#13
Our doc control procedure described how external documents would be controlled, and the master list grew to about 4 pages.
Can any one tel me what details the maste list of documents shold contain..??

In particular the attributes that should be recorded..

viz., document name,document received from..

And should this master list kept separately or should it be a part of the main masterlist of document and records..??
 
R

ramvaidhya - 2009

#14
Its all about the relavance being created to the business to control the external document or not. The meaning behind the control is we should not land up in using the obsolete stuff. With this quickly scan external documents and classify as controlled and uncontrolled copy. Best way is left the choise to the process owner with clear justification and leave the control authority to them. At last it is our decision how much pain.. we can tolerate...:bonk:
 
R

ramvaidhya - 2009

#15
Its all about the relavance being created to the business to control the external document or not. The meaning behind the control is we should not land up in using the obsolete stuff. With this quickly scan external documents and classify as controlled and uncontrolled copy. Best way is left the choise to the process owner with clear justification and leave the control authority to them. At last it is our decision how much pain.. we can tolerate...:bonk:
It doest matter what we do...But it matter How we do.
 
P

pldey42

#16
4.2.3.f says, "to ensure that documents of external origin are identified and their distribution controlled" It's more than identifying their source, it's about making sure that new versions are made available to all who need them. There's little worse than a customer discovering that a revision to a customer-originated drawing or specification has not been communicated to all involved and that the organisation is consequently making non-conforming product.

4.2.3 also says that "A documented procedure shall be established to define the controls needed ..." The word "need" is important. It means the controls that the organisation determines it needs--not what an "idiot auditor" thinks it needs on the basis of a literal, mechanistic reading of the standard. One way to determine "need" is to consider what will happen if distribution of the document of external origin is not controlled. Therein lie the benefits of this requirement. So ...

If we use an out-of-date catalogue, we call a supplier for a product that is no longer available, or costs more than we expect, or doesn't do what we think it does. In many cases, no big deal, supplier will correct us and life moves on. If we're the purchasing department and we make a hundred such calls a day, maybe we ought to control catalogues in order to avoid wasting our time. If an engineer makes design decisions based on an out-of-date catalogue, costly rework might be involved when the error is discovered. If we're a marine regulator, it sounds like it's vital to control catalogues.

If we use an older edition of Juran than is currently available from Borders, how much trouble are we in? Very little, I would imagine, unless our product is critically dependent on material in the latest revisions to the book. Of course, if we work for Mr Juran and we haven't read the latest wisdom from the master ...

If we're doing R&D and the customer has written a technical specification that runs to a hundred pages, revises it, and finds that while fifty of our engineers have the revised version another couple of hundred are working to the old one, the customer will be seriously annoyed, especially if it's a time and materials project and the non-conforming product is being made on the customer's nickel.

If we claim our product conforms to an international technical specification, and that specification changes, and our engineers do not get informed of the change, we could be in breach of contract.

If we use the 1994 edition of ISO 9001 instead of the 2000 version, our colleagues giggle hysterically and ask us which planet we've been on for the last several years.

Hope this helps,
Pat
 
H

hariharakumarm - 2009

#17
If we use the 1994 edition of ISO 9001 instead of the 2000 version, our colleagues giggle hysterically and ask us which planet we've been on for the last several years.
I liked this example very much..:lmao::applause:

And the information you provided was so easy to follow..:cool:
 
I

ISO Queen

#18
The way that I define "documents of external origin" is this: a document of external origin for which the revision level can have an impact on the quality of product or the effectiveness of the Quality Management System.

We had an auditor from TUV who wanted to define user manuals of equipment (centrifuges, -80 degree C freezers, etc) as documents of external origin. Sounded like extra work, with no value added for us.

I firmly believe in ISO; everything should be value added. When people say, "ISO certification means dotting every I and crossing every T", my reply is that they have not seen a pragmatic and elegant system.

Our BSI auditor (bye-bye TUV SUD), picked up the docs of external origin procedure and said, "Oh, these are your standards, right?"
Right!
 
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