Does 7.4 apply to products or services meant for Environment or OHS management?

[vanputten]

Somashekar:

7.4 is dependent on upon the effect of the purchased product on subsequent product realization or the final product. Without knowing the subsequent product realization or final product, no one can even begin to help Samsung.

And even if Samsung provides this info, it is still up to his organization to think about the effects of anything purchased, define a theory as to why those things do have an effect, define the controls applied, monitor the effectiveness of the theory and resulting process, and continually improve.

There is no one right answer. 7.4 is not an area of the standard where one will be given a certain answer. No certainty here even though that is what is requested. This is not an attribute kind of questions (yes/no, is/is not, black/white, 0/1, pregnant/not pregnant.)

What if "dust filtering bags used in air pollution control devices or the pressure transmitters or the analyzers/ chemicals used in waste water treatment, testing/ calibration service etc." are Samsung's products?

 

[samsung]

Somashekar:

7.4 is dependent on upon the effect of the purchased product on subsequent product realization or the final product. Without knowing the subsequent product realization or final product, no one can even begin to help Samsung.

And even if Samsung provides this info, it is still up to his organization to think about the effects of anything purchased, define a theory as to why those things do have an effect, define the controls applied, monitor the effectiveness of the theory and resulting process, and continually improve.

There is no one right answer. 7.4 is not an area of the standard where one will be given a certain answer. No certainty here even though that is what is requested. This is not an attribute kind of questions (yes/no, is/is not, black/white, 0/1, pregnant/not pregnant.)

What if "dust filtering bags used in air pollution control devices or the pressure transmitters or the analyzers/ chemicals used in waste water treatment, testing/ calibration service etc." are Samsung's products?

Our product is cement and the product realization process includes activities like i.e. mining, power generation, heating of raw material in rotary kiln, grinding, packing, bulk transportation etc. The processes make extensive use of energy and natural resources. Since it's a manufacturing industry, besides productivity, environment management/ control on pollution as well as the health and safety of employees/ nearby communities are equally critical for us.

Now, in the backdrop, there was an audit finding (recertification audit), the exact text of the 'observation' follows:

"Purchasing process under QMS was found to be inadequate with a few number of critical bought out items and evaluation of vendors on a limited scale covering the critical items listed only. In view of the effect of a large number of bought-out items (spares) on product realization, which has not been listed under QMS, the organization needs to systematically determine other bought-out items and include in the list of critical items subjected to vendor selection /evaluation procedure."

Although the finding was written against ISO 9001:2008 clause 7.4.1, many of the items used in the process are critical for env., H&S as well. The items I quoted in my opening post, e.g. "dust filtering bags used in air pollution control devices" are the items that not only effect ehe environmental performance but also have the potential to adversely affect the material balance (loss of dust into environment = loss of costly product).

Although 14001/ OHSAS do not specifically mandate setting up a formal supplier selection/ evaluation process, can these items be linked to 6.3 & 6.4 in order to bring them under the realms of 'Supplier Selection/ Evaluation process'.

Thanks.

 

[Paul Simpson]

samsung it was useful to have the additional explanation. The point a number of us have been making is that your process for supplier selection and purchasing can be extended to cover anything you wish. So if you want to send questionnaires out to PPE suppliers and the link you can. Only you can judge if there is any value in that.

The other point I have been trying to make is that 18k and 14k plays no part in 9k clauses on infrastructure and work environment. There are plenty of threads around on this topic.

Going back to the 'observation' - do you agree with it? If you do then it is a case of going through your list of infrastructure items and deciding which ones need to be included in the purchasing process.

If you disagree with the observation and see no value in applying the purchasing process to these 'other' items then you can say so. Just go back to the CB and tell them that you don't believe it will add any value to your system.

Purchasing spare parts for machinery and equipment is generally very different from sourcing (in your case) raw materials and therefore you wouldn't ordinarily apply the same controls but, as has been mentioned elsewhere, only you can tell.

 

[somashekar]

Our product is cement and the product realization process includes activities like i.e. mining, power generation, heating of raw material in rotary kiln, grinding, packing, bulk transportation etc. The processes make extensive use of energy and natural resources. Since it's a manufacturing industry, besides productivity, environment management/ control on pollution as well as the health and safety of employees/ nearby communities are equally critical for us.

Now, in the backdrop, there was an audit finding (recertification audit), the exact text of the 'observation' follows:

"Purchasing process under QMS was found to be inadequate with a few number of critical bought out items and evaluation of vendors on a limited scale covering the critical items listed only. In view of the effect of a large number of bought-out items (spares) on product realization, which has not been listed under QMS, the organization needs to systematically determine other bought-out items and include in the list of critical items subjected to vendor selection /evaluation procedure."

Although the finding was written against ISO 9001:2008 clause 7.4.1, many of the items used in the process are critical for env., H&S as well. The items I quoted in my opening post, e.g. "dust filtering bags used in air pollution control devices" are the items that not only effect ehe environmental performance but also have the potential to adversely affect the material balance (loss of dust into environment = loss of costly product).

Although 14001/ OHSAS do not specifically mandate setting up a formal supplier selection/ evaluation process, can these items be linked to 6.3 & 6.4 in order to bring them under the realms of 'Supplier Selection/ Evaluation process'.

Thanks.

I guess you can best understand the observation statement being more familier to the situation and circumstance in which it was observed.
I will read into these lines of the 7.4.1 more carefully ...
The organization shall ensure that purchased product conforms to specified purchase requirements.
and
The organization shall evaluate and select suppliers based on their ability to supply product in accordance with the organization's requirements.
and apply this to the process of vendor evaluation and selection and then to the purchased product.
This is in no way limiting to purchase of stuff towards the product realization. How is the E and HS requirements included and the same is translated into purchase requirements. So in an integrated system, as an auditor, one would be interested to dwell into this and see objective evidences to be certain that there is this real integration. Perhaps in a audit after sustaining the integrated management system for a term of maturity of say 3 years or so, this observation is to make one look more deeper into good alignment.

 

[Paul Simpson]

I knew at the time I would regret getting involved in this discussion. But I also remember deciding why I would.

The thread had the look of a 'bring H & S and Environmental under the scope of an ISO 9001 set of requirements' about it and that is the way it is going. So before I cover somashekar's post let me be absolutely clear about what I think:

• Integrated management systems are a good thing - so if you can combine a set of requirements for H &S, Environmental, Finance in a single processs then this is good
• Requirements standards should not be extended into areas where no requirement exists - this particularly applies to auditors
• Here on the cove we need to be very careful about the advice we give - we don't want to be creating problems for others who use our advice

I guess you can best understand the observation statement being more familier to the situation and circumstance in which it was observed.
I will read into these lines of the 7.4.1 more carefully ...
The organization shall ensure that purchased product conforms to specified purchase requirements.
and
The organization shall evaluate and select suppliers based on their ability to supply product in accordance with the organization's requirements.
and apply this to the process of vendor evaluation and selection and then to the purchased product. .

This is why I hate selective quoting ...

If you go on to read the part of the standard between those two quotes that somashekar makes it clarifies why the other parts exist and directs people to purchasing controls for materials and components - admittedly without directly saying so.

The type and extent of control applied to the supplier and the purchased product shall be dependent upon the effect of the
purchased product on subsequent product realization or the final product.

This doesn't mean that only things that go into the final product should be covered by the clause but what effect all the infrastructure stuff has on the final product is the business of the organization - not their auditor (unless they identify a problem on audit).

This is in no way limiting to purchase of stuff towards the product realization. How is the E and HS requirements included and the same is translated into purchase requirements. So in an integrated system, as an auditor, one would be interested to dwell into this and see objective evidences to be certain that there is this real integration. Perhaps in a audit after sustaining the integrated management system for a term of maturity of say 3 years or so, this observation is to make one look more deeper into good alignment.

So as it stands we don't have an integrated system (so far as we know) - the observation is raised on 9k and in any case (as I have mentioned earlier) to apply the same systems for purchasing PPE as you would for raw materials is just plain mad!

 

[samsung]

From the foregoing discussion, I come to realize that

- the auditor cannot legitimately raise an issue for the purchased products concerning env./ OHS management.

- so far as 9001 matters, it's upto the organization to decide upto what extent they wish to excercise controls and which items they consider 'critical' in terms of vendor evalaution unless the auditor proves otherwise.


Thanks to all who contributed to this thread to help me clarify my doubts.

 

[somashekar]

Boris ~~~
Not selective quoting. I have clearly said "I will read into these lines of the 7.4.1 more carefully ..." which goes to say that the 7.4.1. is in the context.
Never mind that.
Now seeing it in simple terms.,
1. A scrap collector selection in the integrated management must evaluate his approval with regulators both central and state (Indian scenario) for that specific type of scrap you generate and his ability to handle capacity sanction as against your generation.
2. A packaged drinking water supplier selection must include his approval with regulators, his ability to provide test reports per potable water standards consistantly for asked periods.
3 A food contractor who supplies lunch to employees, his selection must include the current municipal permits for operating the kitchen, be able to evidence food testing report and have periodic health check conducted to his employees.
and so on we can have several examples, from general supplies to maintenance spares.
* If I buy a xyz brand motor which is cheaper to abc brand, am I compromising on the noise level ?
* If I buy an insulated heavyduty screwdriver for electrical maintenance, is the insulation rated to specific voltage and meant for such an application ?
Who does this is not important as this can be in the purchase process, maintenance process or in the HR & admin process. But then your evaluation and selection must be in line with the E and OHS management.
So Yes, 7.4 applies to products or services meant for E or OHS management.

 

[Paul Simpson]

Why is this so difficult?

Boris ~~~
Not selective quoting. I have clearly said "I will read into these lines of the 7.4.1 more carefully ..." which goes to say that the 7.4.1. is in the context.
Never mind that.

My simple point in my post is that you quoted line 1 and 3 that supported your argument but not line 2 that leads towards applying the clause to products going into the final product or service. If you can't see that then we have nothing more to say on the topic. Your quote is reproduced below - mine is in a post below.

I guess you can best understand the observation statement being more familier to the situation and circumstance in which it was observed.
I will read into these lines of the 7.4.1 more carefully ...
The organization shall ensure that purchased product conforms to specified purchase requirements.
and
The organization shall evaluate and select suppliers based on their ability to supply product in accordance with the organization's requirements.
and apply this to the process of vendor evaluation and selection and then to the purchased product.
This is in no way limiting to purchase of stuff towards the product realization. How is the E and HS requirements included and the same is translated into purchase requirements. So in an integrated system, as an auditor, one would be interested to dwell into this and see objective evidences to be certain that there is this real integration. Perhaps in a audit after sustaining the integrated management system for a term of maturity of say 3 years or so, this observation is to make one look more deeper into good alignment.

Now seeing it in simple terms.,
1. An scrap collector selection in the integrated management must evaluate his approval with regulators both central and state (Indian scenario) for that specific type of scrap you generate and his ability to handle capacity sanction as against your generation.

I'm not sure the examples are helpful but will work with them just this once. It seems like the legal requirements for waste collection in India are similar to the UK. My point is a 'product' purchasing process is currently unlikely to look to see a supplier is on a legal register of approved waste carriers but might suggest sending a questionnaire checking capability. So the two processes for evaluating capability are different and should not be merged IMHO.

2. A packaged drinking water supplier selection must include his approval with regulators, his ability to provide test reports per potable water standards consistantly for asked periods.

Here we might differ. Typically in the UK bottled water is purchased as a commodity and a purchaser would not typically ask for evidence of approval - it is taken for granted. Again I would not spend too much time on supplier selection here and certainly wouldn't want to send them a questionnaire etc.

3 A food contractor who supplies lunch to employees, his selection must include the current municipal permits for operating the kitchen, Be able to evidence food testing report and have periodic health check conducted to his employees.

Again this is typically taken for granted so no selection required.

and so on we can have several examples, from general supplies to maintenance spares.
* If I buy a xyz brand motor which is cheaper to abc brand, am I compromising on the noise level ?

I give up - are you? This is not a justification for applying the same 7.4.1 system that you use for other product - in fact it is a similar point I made in my earlier post - the processes are very different.

* If I buy an insulated heavyduty screwdriver for electrical maintenance, is the insulation rated to specific voltage and meant for such an application ?
Who does this is not important as this can be in the purchase process, maintenance process or in the HR & admin process. But then your evaluation and selection must be in line with the E and OHS management.

Here we go again - back to E and OHS. In this thread and across the Cove we should stop from blurring the lines - it is confusing to those reading.

So Yes, 7.4 applies to products or services meant for E or OHS management.

For the last time .... we disagree.