Does a Raw Material Supplier Change Require PPAP?

E

energy

#11
Thanks Sam

Sam said:
Energy, I'll use your response as an example.

From the PPAP manual 3rd ed. "Suppliers are responsible for approval of subcontracted material and services that do not affect customer form, fit, function, durability or performence requirements."

In Energys case he is buying 316L material from vendor A. At some point in time he decides to buy 316L from vendor B. Test results indicate that vendor B is the same as vendor A, thereore there is no affect on form,fit, function, durability or performance requirements.
Conclusion: No customer notification required. You have been given the responsibility to make the decision.
Then it's not a big deal? :thanx:
 
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Howard Atkins

Forum Administrator
Staff member
Admin
#12
Not all material is as "simple" as steel.
Plastic for example - different companies sell PPS ( type of plastic) + 30 GF (glass fibre) but even though it is the same each company has slightly different additives etc.
Example from real life:
A part was produced from plastic from a compounder- he changed his additive- the supplier of the injected part did not tell hias customer, result problems of adhesion for the customer.
This result caused problems with assembly, scrap etc until the reason was found.

Better safe than sorry.
 
E

energy

#13
Better safe than sorry?

Howard Atkins said:
Not all material is as "simple" as steel.
Plastic for example - different companies sell PPS ( type of plastic) + 30 GF (glass fibre) but even though it is the same each company has slightly different additives etc.
Example from real life:
A part was produced from plastic from a compounder- he changed his additive- the supplier of the injected part did not tell hias customer, result problems of adhesion for the customer.
This result caused problems with assembly, scrap etc until the reason was found.

Better safe than sorry.
That can happen to anyone, anytime. Does PPAP prevent this? Testing of polymers is a science. Why should a Supplier need an approval from his Customer to change vendors if the Supplier has done all he could to verify that the material is exactly what they have been getting? You cite a real life example. Could it have been prevented? How? Consider price and delivery as part of your reply. :agree:
 

Howard Atkins

Forum Administrator
Staff member
Admin
#14
Energy

Of cause you are right, PPAP will not prevent anything that you don't want to prevent.
The example that I quoted could have been prevented if the companies involved had notified their customer.

The thread is about what the customer wants and not what is logical- the two are not necessarily the same.
Here is what DC say in their
DaimlerChrysler (Chrysler Group) Customer-Specific Requirements For Use With ISO/TS 16949 Second Edition

4.2.1.16
The organization shall proactively communicate with DaimlerChrysler regarding changes that may impact product quality. Specifically, notification to the Supplier Quality Manager and Purchasing Agent shall be completed verbally with written follow up before any of the following can be implemented at the organization’s location or any supplier location:​
  1. • Proposed Material Changes
  2. • Proposed Process Changes
  3. • Proposed Manufacturing Location Changes
Please do not forget that PPAP is Production Part Approval Process and the approval is for the process no less than the part. The material is approved at this time also. If the part was approved with this material then a change of material requires resubmission.​


In the automotive industry the customer will expect that if you have saved on raw material that he sees a percentage of the saving. OK tell me that this is not his business- but it is, it is part of the agreement.

Improvement in delivery: if it is on your part to ensure that you keep you side of the delivery schedule - you have agreed to 100% adherence to timetable. Then this should have been done much earlier.
If it is to reduce your stock then again your customer will want his share.
 
E

energy

#15
What's PPAP?

Thanks Howard. That's what I was asking for. My familarization with PPAP was nil and I was hoping to have it spelled out clearly in real life terms. Now, one more. The third line: Notifying the Customer of a proposed change in manufacturing locations. Is this case, it would be a new Supplier. Does that mean you or any of your Suppliers? Is it absolutely necessary for Mike, the starter of this thread, to send out all this documentation because he has to, or others think he has to? As you can see, there are others more knowlegable than I, that don't think so. And, the reason I express my opposition to it is that it makes no sense to me. I feel it's overbearing and an imposition on companies. How many companies are bullied into doing things because of their fear of their customers without really digging in and finding out if they have to do these things at all? You've been very helpful. :thanx:
 
M

martin elliott

#16
energy said:
Okay, I regularly order a part from you made of 316L Stainless. I find a new supplier of 316L Stainless and through the use of independent lab analysis I verified that is exactly the same. Why do you have to send your Customer anything, unless they dictate who you buy from? I have worked in a company that had to use a particular heat treating company because they were on their approved supplier list. The PO stated this. Anything else, such as material suppliers, we would shop around and get the price, delivery, etc..Of course there a requirement that we test all material at a lab of the customer's choice, but they didn't tell us who to buy from. We just had to have an approved Supplier's list. I feel I'm missing something. Maybe it the understanding of what PPAP really is. Yeah, that's what it is. :bonk:
Energy
I have had simular issues discussing when PPAP 1.3.1 5 applies, ie if same national specification and verified by ourselves then customer notification not required? Except you can come a well adrift where such items as creep failure or Low temperature impact or specific media corrosion resistance etc, which can be effected by the mill source ,but does not form part of the standard testing. Been there, done that!

Safest to notify customer in all cases perhaps wording in a "assuring" manner.

As for end users being overbearing and imposing, never anything different in automotive!

Martin
 
D

D.Scott

#17
Martin, Welcome to the Cove and nice post. IMHO, there is room for both sides of this discussion. Energy is talking about an "off the shelf" product that isn't going to change from one supplier to the next. If however you know there is a liklihood that the change will effect the product, then you are of course obligated to consult the customer. Even the tight D/C requirements cited by Howard don't actually address changing the supplier - only changing the material, process or location. The assumption must be that if the change of material supplier were intended as a criteria, it would surely have been included. I agree with Energy and some of the others who point out the customer doesn't really care who you buy the material from so long as there is NO change in the material. If there is any possibility of change, it must be documented, tested and cleared with the customer.

All IMHO.

Dave
 
E

energy

#18
Agreed

D.Scott said:
I agree with Energy and some of the others who point out the customer doesn't really care who you buy the material from so long as there is NO change in the material. If there is any possibility of change, it must be documented, tested and cleared with the customer.

All IMHO.

Dave
You are absolutely correct on the "off the shelf" product assumption. I'll do the steel thing again. I can buy the same steel from a half dozen suppliers and receive the same Chems & Phys, same HT. NO., mill, etc.. It makes no sense at all to file all this PPAP (Paper Paper and Paper) with the customers if you are supplying the same material. Of course, you must do your homework and test/verify that you are getting exactly the same item in order to get your confidence factor in the new supplier. Who wouldn't? I'm not advocating hiding anything from the Customer. I just don't think they have to know things that are none of their business. As for passing on cost savings, per Howard's post, I understand that the customer would like that nickel. Too bad. With this PPAP stuff, they are lucky it isn't a quarter more. JMHO :agree:
 
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M

martin elliott

#19
Energy
I did not make myself clear, I came accross a "cropper" buying from a different Steel Mill and testing the new material to national specification(s) quoted by the customer firmly believing that on that basis I would not need to notify customer.

BUT I found to my cost that the customers design was on the limits for the material capability on a feature not apparent from the specification. Thus changing from a "very compliant" to a "just compliant" mill caused field failures.

So you might think the customer's design was wrong as it could not cope with the full range of material complying to the material specification, I agree, but they don't see it that way and argue that you have ppap'ed with one source and if a change causes problems its your fault.

Heads they win Tails you lose

Martin
 
E

energy

#20
I understand

martin elliott said:
So you might think the customer's design was wrong as it could not cope with the full range of material complying to the material specification, I agree, but they don't see it that way and argue that you have ppap'ed with one source and if a change causes problems its your fault.

Heads they win Tails you lose

Martin
Yes, the Customer's design is flawed by using marginal material, but they're the customer and they will make themselves right....right or wrong. I just suspect that it is a rare situation and it is not typical. :agree:
 
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