SBS - The Best Value in QMS software

Does an Internal Audit provide Objective or Subjective Verification?

K

Ka Pilo

#1
Put this way for a longer question...

Is internal audit designed to provide some kind of objective or subjective verification of the conformity or nonconformity against the requirement/s?
 
Elsmar Forum Sponsor
#2
Re: Is internal audit provide objective or subjective verification?

Put this way for a longer question...

Is internal audit designed to provide some kind of objective or subjective verification of the conformity or nonconformity against the requirement/s?
Since it's clearly defined and being objective and impartial, why do you ask about 'subjective'?
 

Jen Kirley

Quality and Auditing Expert
Staff member
Admin
#3
Re: Is internal audit provide objective or subjective verification?

Some of my auditees have no doubt believed my verification was subjective. But I think that was a point of view based on a wish for me to just go away. :D
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#4
Re: Is internal audit provide objective or subjective verification?

Put this way for a longer question...

Is internal audit designed to provide some kind of objective or subjective verification of the conformity or nonconformity against the requirement/s?
If the question is conformity or nonconformity and there's a disagreement, it probably means that the definitions and/or criteria are ambiguous. Internal audits should (imo) range beyond compliance with existing requirements and identify opportunities to make things better. That part of it can become subjective.
 
#5
One of the (many) problems arising from audits done subjectively, is the "I think you can improve X" syndrome. Often the (unspoken) reply is "Thanks for sharing"... It's no better than a friend or family member coming to you and saying "You could lose a few pounds!" It may be true, but it's hardly helpful!

That fact is that although auditors may be correct, like all things we can do to improve our lives, unless there's some compelling reason to make the improvement, management are simply going to add it to an increasing list of things to do...probably close to the bottom! When auditors suggest such things, they had better be very clear it's a priority that will get management's attention.
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#6
One of the (many) problems arising from audits done subjectively, is the "I think you can improve X" syndrome. Often the (unspoken) reply is "Thanks for sharing"... It's no better than a friend or family member coming to you and saying "You could lose a few pounds!" It may be true, but it's hardly helpful!

That fact is that although auditors may be correct, like all things we can do to improve our lives, unless there's some compelling reason to make the improvement, management are simply going to add it to an increasing list of things to do...probably close to the bottom! When auditors suggest such things, they had better be very clear it's a priority that will get management's attention.
If you go into the whole thing of internal auditing with a defeatist attitude, you'll probably be defeated. There are myriad ways that internal auditors can be catalysts for change, but if you really think that it's analogous to telling a friend that he's too fat, the battle is lost. Of course you have to pick your spots and be aware of the possible ramifications, but if auditors haven't achieved that level of discernment they probably shouldn't be auditing.

Of course, if all you need is someone who can tell black from white, anyone can do it.
 
K

Ka Pilo

#7
Re: Is internal audit provide objective or subjective verification?

If the question is conformity or nonconformity and there's a disagreement, it probably means that the definitions and/or criteria are ambiguous. Internal audits should (imo) range beyond compliance with existing requirements and identify opportunities to make things better. That part of it can become subjective.
But audit finding does seem to have different weights. We are extremely certain about some things. Other things seem pretty likely, but not certain.
 

Stijloor

Staff member
Super Moderator
#8
Re: Is internal audit provide objective or subjective verification?

But audit finding does seem to have different weights. We are extremely certain about some things. Other things seem pretty likely, but not certain.
Such is life....:D

Stijloor.
 

Big Jim

Super Moderator
#9
One of the (many) problems arising from audits done subjectively, is the "I think you can improve X" syndrome. Often the (unspoken) reply is "Thanks for sharing"... It's no better than a friend or family member coming to you and saying "You could lose a few pounds!" It may be true, but it's hardly helpful!

That fact is that although auditors may be correct, like all things we can do to improve our lives, unless there's some compelling reason to make the improvement, management are simply going to add it to an increasing list of things to do...probably close to the bottom! When auditors suggest such things, they had better be very clear it's a priority that will get management's attention.
It really depends on company culture. Some companies are more open to internal suggestions than others.

Personally, having a poor company culture would not keep me from trying to improve it though. If enough people tried, some real improvements could be made.
 
K

Ka Pilo

#10
If you go into the whole thing of internal auditing with a defeatist attitude, you'll probably be defeated. There are myriad ways that internal auditors can be catalysts for change, but if you really think that it's analogous to telling a friend that he's too fat, the battle is lost. Of course you have to pick your spots and be aware of the possible ramifications, but if auditors haven't achieved that level of discernment they probably shouldn't be auditing.

Of course, if all you need is someone who can tell black from white, anyone can do it.
And if you just flesh that out slightly... that means that the definition of what is conformity (or what is nonconformity) is subjective for auditors. Because it is subjective, that means the appreciation of evidence depends on them to make judgement. Subjectiveity as the guiding principle doesn't care wether or not auditor think it can't impact your process, if it can it will.
 
Thread starter Similar threads Forum Replies Date
N Small Company - Internal audit process - Who does the audit? Internal Auditing 16
J Does anyone have an excel IATF 16949 Internal Audit checklist I could use? IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 7
Tagin Does ISO 9001:2015 require a full internal audit annually? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 21
V What does your Internal Audit Reveal? Internal Auditing 10
K Does this qualify as an Internal Audit? Internal Auditing 8
D Internal Audit Frequency - What does "at Planned Intervals" mean? Internal Auditing 14
C Does anyone have an example of an ISO 14001 Internal Audit Schedule ISO 14001:2015 Specific Discussions 2
6 Management Review does not highlight Internal Audit Finding - Root Cause Analysis General Auditing Discussions 11
M Does Anybody have an ISO 22000 internal audit checklist for sharing? Internal Auditing 11
G Does ISO 9001 Audit fit in within the Corporate Internal Audit department? Internal Auditing 31
Howard Atkins What does the internal audit procedure for TS 16949 need to include? Clause 8.2.2 General Auditing Discussions 7
Q Internal Audit Questions - Does anyone have sample questions for Management Internal Auditing 16
R Internal audit schedules - Where does it say that I need an annual schedule? Internal Auditing 13
R Does any here use an internal auditing tool that works on different platforms? Internal Auditing 3
W Does anyone have an API Q2 checklist for internal auditing? Oil and Gas Industry Standards and Regulations 1
S Does anyone have any pointers on TS 16949 Internal Auditor Training IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 4
Marc Does ISO 9001 *require* that Internal Audits be Process Audits? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 5
K How does an Internal Auditor document non-ethical or illegal practices Internal Auditing 10
S What does "Operational Review" mean as tool - Effectiveness of Internal Control Risk Management Review Meetings and related Processes 3
H Does internal ppm include defects produced while adjusting the machine? Records and Data - Quality, Legal and Other Evidence 22
D Does TS 16949 require us to have an internal laboratory? IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 7
A Does Your Organization Really Benefit from Internal Audits? Time for a Change? Internal Auditing 149
A Does anyone conduct opening & closing meetings for their internal audits? Internal Auditing 19
K Lead Internal Auditor Training - Does the lead auditor require additional training? Internal Auditing 6
I Internal Auditor Training - Does TS 16949 Require Formal Training or Certification? Internal Auditing 19
M Internal Quality Auditor vs. QMS Lead Auditor - How much $ does each make? Career and Occupation Discussions 6
Stuart Andrews Does ISO 9001:2000 require Internal Auditors to take a Lead Auditors course? Internal Auditing 2
V Does an internal calibration laboratory need to be certified on ISO 17025? ISO 17025 related Discussions 3
R GS1 DataMatrix code does not meet GS1 Specification EU Medical Device Regulations 0
M Does the scope of ISO 9001:2015 applies to tenders, pricing and sales department of a medical devices distributor? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 3
K Why does load cell supplier requires force verification General Measurement Device and Calibration Topics 3
M Does C=0 strictly mean 1 bad, all bad, all the time? ISO 13485:2016 - Medical Device Quality Management Systems 6
C Does a medical device active (zinc oxide) needs BPR registration in EU? Other ISO and International Standards and European Regulations 1
D Does Risk Management apply to re-labeler (MDR) EU Medical Device Regulations 1
Ed Panek Does this FDA Requirement Apply to international (not USA) distributors for USA based manufacturing companies? 21 CFR Part 820 - US FDA Quality System Regulations (QSR) 0
S Does anyone have a checklist to prepare for ISO 13485, Stage I audit? ISO 13485:2016 - Medical Device Quality Management Systems 1
S Does a refurbished product required a new UDI? US Food and Drug Administration (FDA) 3
D Change to labelling - does it require a new 510(k)? US Food and Drug Administration (FDA) 5
M What does "constantly" mean ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 13
N Does anyone use SGS for ISO 13485 / CE certification Registrars and Notified Bodies 0
G Does FDA allows remote approvals of quality documentation. Is there any specific guidance on signing any quality records remotely? Document Control Systems, Procedures, Forms and Templates 1
B Does FDA Registration QSR need to cover non-medical devices for contract repackager? US Food and Drug Administration (FDA) 1
lanley liao Does all of the suppliers need to integrated into the supplier list qualified of the company? Oil and Gas Industry Standards and Regulations 2
0 To which part of 13485 does this refer? ISO 13485:2016 - Medical Device Quality Management Systems 3
A Medical Device Contract Manufacturer - Does the CM need to register with FDA? 21 CFR Part 820 - US FDA Quality System Regulations (QSR) 3
J Records Control - Does each individual record need to be numbered? Records and Data - Quality, Legal and Other Evidence 2
lanley liao Does the customer`s trademark belong to customer-supplied property? Oil and Gas Industry Standards and Regulations 2
H How does a gas turbine work on diesel fuel? Oil and Gas Industry Standards and Regulations 12
G What does performance specification include? US Food and Drug Administration (FDA) 1
W Where does a coatings and paint company fall in IATF? IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 5

Similar threads

Top Bottom