M
Marcus CLF
It's seem like companies only care about the quality of product but just don't pay much attention to the safety of working environment. Can this issue be covered under ISO 9001:2000 clause 6.4?
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potdar
Re: Doeas ISO have anything to do with safety at working place?
Working environment is covered under 6.4. Safety manifests itself in many places - 6.3 for equipment safety, 6.4 for overall safety, 7.2 for product safety, 7.5.1 for operating safety, 7.5.5 for packing safety.
Working environment is covered under 6.4. Safety manifests itself in many places - 6.3 for equipment safety, 6.4 for overall safety, 7.2 for product safety, 7.5.1 for operating safety, 7.5.5 for packing safety.
Colin
Quite Involved in Discussions
Re: Does ISO 9001 have anything to do with safety at working place?
Not really, see clause 0.4 Compatibility with other management systems which states "this international standard does not include requirements specific to other management systems, such as those particular to environmental management, occupational health and safety management," etc.
Potdar is correct in saying that it could come up in a number of places and 6.3/6.4 are most the likely suspects.
Not really, see clause 0.4 Compatibility with other management systems which states "this international standard does not include requirements specific to other management systems, such as those particular to environmental management, occupational health and safety management," etc.
Potdar is correct in saying that it could come up in a number of places and 6.3/6.4 are most the likely suspects.
Re: Does ISO 9001 have anything to do with safety at working place?
What safety issues are you concerned with? Very often people don’t understand and they blame anything with its back facing the sun. While ISO 9001 is not a standard for safety, it does not stop you from incorporating industry good practices into your manufacturing activities. Take for example, the aluminum extrusion industry for which I guess you are in. You should have work instructions or SOP incorporating safety precautions and good practices while handling the oven, the extruded metal and other high temperature/risk areas because it is something needed or compulsory for this industry. The ISO 9001 third party auditor will not be bothered whether your safety precautions meet OHSAS requirements because it is outside his scope but if your workers are found not complying with your WI/SOP, he will penalized you.
Do what you do or supposed to do in your industry. Build the ISO system around your business and not the other way round.
What safety issues are you concerned with? Very often people don’t understand and they blame anything with its back facing the sun. While ISO 9001 is not a standard for safety, it does not stop you from incorporating industry good practices into your manufacturing activities. Take for example, the aluminum extrusion industry for which I guess you are in. You should have work instructions or SOP incorporating safety precautions and good practices while handling the oven, the extruded metal and other high temperature/risk areas because it is something needed or compulsory for this industry. The ISO 9001 third party auditor will not be bothered whether your safety precautions meet OHSAS requirements because it is outside his scope but if your workers are found not complying with your WI/SOP, he will penalized you.
Do what you do or supposed to do in your industry. Build the ISO system around your business and not the other way round.
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Paul Simpson
Trusted Information Resource
Re: Does ISO 9001 have anything to do with safety at working place?
I'm going to go into Sidney mode.
ISO 9001 says Nothing about safety. ISO 9001 Auditors are not entitled to assess against safety requirements. The bit about work environment includes "needed to achieve conformity to product
requirements." So that is the only obligation on an organisation going for certification to 9k2k.
However, having got the requirements out of the way, as has already been mentioned it is good practice to integrate your systems for safety, health, environment, quality, etc., etc. So by all means include safe systems of work in your QMS work instructions / procedures.
If you want a model for a H & S management system you could do far worse than look at OHSAS 18001.
I'm going to go into Sidney mode.
ISO 9001 says Nothing about safety. ISO 9001 Auditors are not entitled to assess against safety requirements. The bit about work environment includes "needed to achieve conformity to product
requirements." So that is the only obligation on an organisation going for certification to 9k2k.
However, having got the requirements out of the way, as has already been mentioned it is good practice to integrate your systems for safety, health, environment, quality, etc., etc. So by all means include safe systems of work in your QMS work instructions / procedures.
If you want a model for a H & S management system you could do far worse than look at OHSAS 18001.
P
potdar
Re: Does ISO 9001 have anything to do with safety at working place?
ISO 9K does not require you to meet 'other standards' but the management responsibility does cover meeting statutory requrements. These requirements are met because they are for your own good.
I already covered the clauses. Just some examples.
You have a boiler in your factory, the auditor is not going to check whether it can stand the pressure. He will certainly ask whether the boiler inspector has checked and certified it. You can bet your maintenance QMS shall specify it because you want it there.
Same with welding glasses, gloves, masks, .. wherever required. Your QMS will specify it and the auditor will look into it becase the QMS specifies it.
If you make dynamite, you are going to handle it and pack it with utmost care. you will do it for your own good, because you have agreed to do so with your customer. It will be specified again in your QMS. The auditor will look into it.
You make foodstuff, want to continue in the business, your QMS will specify disinfected workplaces.
These things are done for your requirements. To combine your business requirements under a common simple system. The standard only provides a scope for it.
ISO 9K does not require you to meet 'other standards' but the management responsibility does cover meeting statutory requrements. These requirements are met because they are for your own good.
I already covered the clauses. Just some examples.
You have a boiler in your factory, the auditor is not going to check whether it can stand the pressure. He will certainly ask whether the boiler inspector has checked and certified it. You can bet your maintenance QMS shall specify it because you want it there.
Same with welding glasses, gloves, masks, .. wherever required. Your QMS will specify it and the auditor will look into it becase the QMS specifies it.
If you make dynamite, you are going to handle it and pack it with utmost care. you will do it for your own good, because you have agreed to do so with your customer. It will be specified again in your QMS. The auditor will look into it.
You make foodstuff, want to continue in the business, your QMS will specify disinfected workplaces.
These things are done for your requirements. To combine your business requirements under a common simple system. The standard only provides a scope for it.
Paul Simpson
Trusted Information Resource
Re: Does ISO 9001 have anything to do with safety at working place?
No again! Apologies to Sidney for adopting his style .... if not quite as gracefully!
This has been covered about 400 times in earlier threads.
Looking at the scope of the standard:
So all regulatory requirements are those that apply to the product - not to occupational health & safety.
As a quality auditor if I found they weren't carrying out statutory inspections then I might make a verbal observation - but it doesn't appear in the ISO 9001 audit report.
As a separate issue if I was assessing a company with poor dynamite handling processes I would stop the audit and tell the company that my company would not be certifying them. Not because of ISO 9001 but because I have to look after my own safety and those I direct.
I also wouldn't want my CB to be drawn into the bad publicity when they had an accident.
No again! Apologies to Sidney for adopting his style .... if not quite as gracefully!
This has been covered about 400 times in earlier threads.Agreed. But if you want to address other requirements (like health & safety) you need to use other models / standards.
That does not mean they are documented in your QMS - and even if they are documented they are not subject to "Quality" audit.
Looking at the scope of the standard:
ISO 9001.2000 said:
So all regulatory requirements are those that apply to the product - not to occupational health & safety.
The auditor should evaluate the maintenance programme and assess to see if it is appropriate for ensuring the boiler can continue to do its work to produce product - nothing more.
As a quality auditor if I found they weren't carrying out statutory inspections then I might make a verbal observation - but it doesn't appear in the ISO 9001 audit report.
Same as for the example above. It has no impact on product quality - it doesn't appear in the report!
I would expect proper control over the handling and storage processes .... to ensure the product conforms.
As a separate issue if I was assessing a company with poor dynamite handling processes I would stop the audit and tell the company that my company would not be certifying them. Not because of ISO 9001 but because I have to look after my own safety and those I direct.
I also wouldn't want my CB to be drawn into the bad publicity when they had an accident.
Now there is a clear requirement for product to conform with:
If you are a producer of foodstuffs your auditor should be a specialist in relevant controls that ensure product meets these statutory requirements and they would audit to see that these controls are operated throughout your plant.ISO 9001.2000 Clause 7.2.1 said:
As a responsible member of your own organisation you have a responsibility for safety. You can use integration of H & S matters into a QMS to help but don't expect your auditor to use ISO 9001 to police compliance. They may not be competent to do so.
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P
potdar
Re: Does ISO 9001 have anything to do with safety at working place?
I understand in point a) ISO talks about the product and in point b), not about the product.
Pray how? You expect the auditor to be an expert on boilers? I have always been more comfortable when the auditor belives more in the boiler inspector rather than claiming to be an expert himself. (Just as you wouldnt touch the dynamite
)
See what I mean?
The management responsibility is ignored here. Who do you think ends up behind the bars if there is an accident and loss of life? The CB or the management?
Anything defined as the organisation as their QMS is subject to compliance audit once it is declard as adequate. How deep the auditor wants to dwell into it is to be decided by the auditor.
Secondly, all of us have agreed upteen (four hundred?) times so far that the QMS is meant for the organisation to improve their performance. It is not a baton handed over to the auditor so that the auditor can periodically give them a nice beating and keep them in line.
An expert in foodstuff (as required) would know zilch about working of the boiler that generates the steam to process the foodstuff. So what does he do?
ISO 9001.2000 said:
I understand in point a) ISO talks about the product and in point b), not about the product.
Pray how? You expect the auditor to be an expert on boilers? I have always been more comfortable when the auditor belives more in the boiler inspector rather than claiming to be an expert himself. (Just as you wouldnt touch the dynamite
)See what I mean?
The management responsibility is ignored here. Who do you think ends up behind the bars if there is an accident and loss of life? The CB or the management?
Anything defined as the organisation as their QMS is subject to compliance audit once it is declard as adequate. How deep the auditor wants to dwell into it is to be decided by the auditor.
Secondly, all of us have agreed upteen (four hundred?) times so far that the QMS is meant for the organisation to improve their performance. It is not a baton handed over to the auditor so that the auditor can periodically give them a nice beating and keep them in line.
An expert in foodstuff (as required) would know zilch about working of the boiler that generates the steam to process the foodstuff. So what does he do?
Paul Simpson
Trusted Information Resource
Re: Does ISO 9001 have anything to do with safety at working place?
My last attempt to have a sensible debate with you on this one, potdar.
It just so happens that I have some experience of the statutory obligations for pressure vessel inspection (including boilers) so, from my fortunate position, I would be able to give the company some (value added) advice (off the record) if they weren't complying.
Read anything else into it if you will.
All I have said is you don't use ISO 9001 to give you a safe and healthy working environment - that is not what it is there for. As I have posted (umpteen times) you can integrate other things into your management system (you can even set objectives other than quality objectives if you wish ).
You cannot expect an ISO 9001 auditor to understand enough about all these other things and they should not be reporting on them.
Anything the organisation puts in their system relating to quality is subject to audit under ISO 9001, anything they put in under environment is auditable under ISO 14001 etc., etc.
There is little enough time these days with the competitive market place for ISO 9001 certification to do all that is required to demonstrate the client has a compliant system without delving into areas that are nothing to do with ISO 9001.
My last attempt to have a sensible debate with you on this one, potdar.
You can read point b as well as I can - it is about customer satisfaction - nothing about health and safety.
Look, you used the example of the boiler and I responded. I don't expect an auditor to be an expert on boilers.
It just so happens that I have some experience of the statutory obligations for pressure vessel inspection (including boilers) so, from my fortunate position, I would be able to give the company some (value added) advice (off the record) if they weren't complying.
Read anything else into it if you will.
No.
I have never said the top management is not responsible for health and safety. They are.
All I have said is you don't use ISO 9001 to give you a safe and healthy working environment - that is not what it is there for. As I have posted (umpteen times) you can integrate other things into your management system (you can even set objectives other than quality objectives if you wish
). You cannot expect an ISO 9001 auditor to understand enough about all these other things and they should not be reporting on them.
Rubbish.
Anything the organisation puts in their system relating to quality is subject to audit under ISO 9001, anything they put in under environment is auditable under ISO 14001 etc., etc.
There is little enough time these days with the competitive market place for ISO 9001 certification to do all that is required to demonstrate the client has a compliant system without delving into areas that are nothing to do with ISO 9001.
For quality, yes. Although some people want to make ISO 9001 a completley elastic management system to cover finance, health and safety etc. IMHO not appropriate.
Not sure of your point here. By "extending" ISO 9001 you want to give them a bigger stick?
You have assumed s / he has to be an expert (see above). All I would expect is that the auditor is aware of what conditions the boiler has to generate to assure product quality and checks to see that it is being monitored and maintained to do so.
T
tyker
Re: Does ISO 9001 have anything to do with safety at working place?
Calm down, Paul, it's nearly the weekend.
I agree with most of your comments but:
As an external auditor I did, on occasions, include safety comments in an ISO 9001 report as observations. This was when I found a clearly dangerous working practice and I wanted to ensure that no-one would interpret my lack of action with tacit approval. Covering my back in other words.
I do remember once raising a non-conformity in a vehicle workshop when a mechanic was working on a car engine with the carburettor in pieces and a lighted cigarette in his mouth. The vehicle next to it was having the petrol tank removed and both mechanics on that one were also indulging in the addiction. I recorded it against protection of customers' property as I didn't think the vehicle owners would be too impressed with returning to collect a burnt out wreck.
As an internal auditor, I raise safety issues as non-conformities. I don't care what clause of the standard does or doesn't apply, I want the situation recorded and actioned.
Calm down, Paul, it's nearly the weekend.
I agree with most of your comments but:
As an external auditor I did, on occasions, include safety comments in an ISO 9001 report as observations. This was when I found a clearly dangerous working practice and I wanted to ensure that no-one would interpret my lack of action with tacit approval. Covering my back in other words.
I do remember once raising a non-conformity in a vehicle workshop when a mechanic was working on a car engine with the carburettor in pieces and a lighted cigarette in his mouth. The vehicle next to it was having the petrol tank removed and both mechanics on that one were also indulging in the addiction. I recorded it against protection of customers' property as I didn't think the vehicle owners would be too impressed with returning to collect a burnt out wreck.
As an internal auditor, I raise safety issues as non-conformities. I don't care what clause of the standard does or doesn't apply, I want the situation recorded and actioned.
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