Does ISO 9001 have anything to do with Workplace Safety?

[Paul Simpson]

Re: Does ISO 9001 have anything to do with safety at working place?

Calm down, Paul, it's nearly the weekend.

Thirsty Thursday indeed!

I agree with most of your comments but:

As an external auditor I did, on occasions, include safety comments in an ISO 9001 report as observations. This was when I found a clearly dangerous working practice and I wanted to ensure that no-one would interpret my lack of action with tacit approval. Covering my back in other words.

I remember some detailed discussion at a CB we both know (and love?). The conclusion (that I personally agree with) was that the auditor should record in their notes that they had seen unsafe practices and had notified the guides to that effect.

The reason it never was to be reported in the report was

1. It was outside the remit we had been asked to cover
2. Auditors have a wide range of skills, experience and competence and recording NCs related to quality could lead to problems

I do remember once raising a non-conformity in a vehicle workshop when a mechanic was working on a car engine with the carburettor in pieces and a lighted cigarette in his mouth. The vehicle next to it was having the petrol tank removed and both mechanics on that one were also indulging in the addiction. I recorded it against protection of customers' property as I didn't think the vehicle owners would be too impressed with returning to collect a burnt out wreck.

Spot on use of a relevant clause I would say.

As an internal auditor, I raise safety issues as non-conformities. I don't care what clause of the standard does or doesn't apply, I want the situation recorded and actioned.

Again internally it is a completely different scope / duty - under UK legislation we have duty to look after our own h & s and that of others.

Can I go to the pub now?

 

[potdar]

Re: Does ISO 9001 have anything to do with safety at working place?

My last attempt to have a sensible debate with you on this one, potdar.
You can read point b as well as I can - it is about customer satisfaction - nothing about health and safety.

Lets talk about rest of the thing if you feel upto it after the weekend.

Just for my knowledge, please enlighten me about what 'applicable regulatory requirements' relating to 'customer satisfaction' do you include in your QMS (and audit) in your part of the world. Here arounds we seem to have none.

 

[Paul Simpson]

Re: Does ISO 9001 have anything to do with safety at working place?

Lets talk about rest of the thing if you feel upto it after the weekend.

I am always up to intelligent debate. Even after a really good weekend.

Just for my knowledge, please enlighten me about what 'applicable regulatory requirements' relating to 'customer satisfaction' do you include in your QMS (and audit) in your part of the world. Here arounds we seem to have none.

None. i I don't understand where you got this requirement from. You have to dissect the scope requirement to break it down into three elements

This International Standard specifies requirements for a quality management system where an organization aims to enhance customer satisfaction through the effective application of the system

This International Standard specifies requirements for a quality management system where an organization aims to enhance customer satisfaction through processes for continual improvement of the system and

This International Standard specifies requirements for a quality management system where an organization aims to enhance customer satisfaction through processes for the assurance of conformity to customer and applicable regulatory requirements.

So the point we are debating IMHO is the last one:

In my words the organisation has to make sure it manages those processes that make sure the product complies with any legal requirements.

 

[potdar]

Re: Does ISO 9001 have anything to do with safety at working place?

Semantics? Maybe. But worth a debate.

ISO 9001 says: This international standard specifies requirements for a quality management system where an organisation

a) satisfies clause relating to demonstration of ability of product meeting customer and applicable regulatory requirements.

b) aims to enhance customer satisfaction through the effective appliction of a system including

- processes for continual improvement of the system and

- the assurance of conformity to customer requirements and

- the assurance of conformity to applicable regulatory requirements*.


What are the applicable regulatory requirements in clause b? What regulatory requirements enhance customer satisfaction? I see that requirements related to the product are alredy covered in clause a. Clause b IMO covers requirements beyond clause a.


* clause split to try enhance self understanding.

 

[Paul Simpson]

Re: Does ISO 9001 have anything to do with safety at working place?

Semantics? Maybe. But worth a debate.

ISO 9001 says: This international standard specifies requirements for a quality management system where an organisation

a) satisfies clause relating to demonstration of ability of product meeting customer and applicable regulatory requirements.

b) aims to enhance customer satisfaction through the effective appliction of a system including

- processes for continual improvement of the system and

- the assurance of conformity to customer requirements and

- the assurance of conformity to applicable regulatory requirements*.


What are the applicable regulatory requirements in clause b? What regulatory requirements enhance customer satisfaction? I see that requirements related to the product are alredy covered in clause a. Clause b IMO covers requirements beyond clause a.


* clause split to try enhance self understanding.

Two requirements - same basis but different scopes:
a) is "product conforms"
b) is "system for producing product that conforms"

For both a) and b) the customer and legal requirements relate to product.

In one of the 400 earlier posts Sidney posted a link to the ISO Auditing Practices Group.

https://isotc.iso.org/livelink/live...yRegulatory.doc?func=doc.Fetch&nodeid=3554429

I'm outa here!

 

[Sidney Vianna]

Re: Does ISO 9001 have anything to do with safety at working place?

I'm outa here!

You are a patient man. The frustrating thing is that I (and others) have had discussions similar to this since 1994. And you know we are bound to repeat these discussions in the future, numerous times.
And, even worse. Although you put out very convincing arguments, you know that there are some people out there that think you are wrong and they are right...:mg:. So let them use ISO 9001 to address occupational safety, environmental management, corporate governance, labor relations, the cafeteria menu and solve World hunger, while they are at it.

 

[ScottK]

Re: Does ISO 9001 have anything to do with safety at working place?

Applicable regulatory requirments relate to product conformity, not the infrastructure.
example - we make parts CE marked in accordance with EU PED requirements. So that directvie is an applicable regulatory requirement.

Workplace safety is an infrastructure issue.
6.3 of ISO9001 (Infrastructure) specifies "in order to acheive conformity to product requirements".
a missing machine guard will generally not affect conformity of the product.
Neither will lack of a lockout/tagout program, confined space entry, or bloodborne pathogens procedure.

I agree that an auditor should point out safety issues that are seen during the course of an audit, but they cannot count against the audit unless product conformity in compromised.

 

[chaosweary]

Re: Does ISO 9001 have anything to do with safety at working place?

Many years back when the 9001:2000 standard was first issued I had written Charles Cianfrani co-author of Iso 9001: 2000 Explained regarding the clause "conformity to customer and applicable regulatory requirements" and had asked him if auditors where supposed to be proficient with regulatory requirements (which I think is rediculous) and of course he stated the opposite that auditors are considered professionals and are responsible for knowing and auditing to, if necessary, those regulatory requirements.
I do check for entries, exits, fire extinguishers, eyewash stations and safety showers during my 9001 walkthroughs however, I don't write up an area for it, I forward the results to the safety guy (oshas 18001).
I do believe that Ciafrani's interpretation falls in-line with Potdar's. So I think if you do include Safety like OSHA requirements, well thats fine, if you don't you won't get called on the carpet for any specific safety regs being violated in a 9001 external audit.

 

[Sidney Vianna]

Re: Does ISO 9001 have anything to do with safety at working place?

Many years back when the 9001:2000 standard was first issued I had written Charles Cianfrani co-author of Iso 9001: 2000 Explained regarding the clause "conformity to customer and applicable regulatory requirements" .

Regulatory and statutory requirements RELATED TO PRODUCT. That is one of the amendments proposed in the ISO 9001:2009 document. So, people understand that we are talking about PRODUCT SAFETY. Not occupational safety.
Examples of regulatory and statutory PRODUCT REQUIREMENTS? FDA, FAA, ASME, API, FCC, CE-Mark Directives, ROHS, WEEE, etc....

 

[potdar]

Re: Does ISO 9001 have anything to do with safety at working place?

Regulatory and statutory requirements RELATED TO PRODUCT. That is one of the amendments proposed in the ISO 9001:2009 document. So, people understand that we are talking about PRODUCT SAFETY. Not occupational safety.
Examples of regulatory and statutory PRODUCT REQUIREMENTS? FDA, FAA, ASME, API, FCC, CE-Mark Directives, ROHS, WEEE, etc....

Thanks Sidney. If an AMENDMENT is proposed, there must be some reason for it. The committee members are supposedly quite busy people to waste their time discussing needless rewording of the standard.

I think we will keep our views to ourselves and let them settle it and keep our patience.