Does ISO 9001 have anything to do with Workplace Safety?

[potdar]

Re: Does ISO 9001 have anything to do with safety at working place?

Just wondering. Why are all of us so hell bent on dividing QMS, EMS, OSHAS, ... and so many other standards / systems into watertight compartments. They are not. No organisation can be carved into such pieces. There are overlapping grey zones. There will always be these zones.

 

[Sidney Vianna]

Re: Does ISO 9001 have anything to do with safety at working place?

Just wondering. Why are all of us so hell bent on dividing QMS, EMS, OSHAS, ... and so many other standards / systems into watertight compartments. They are not. No organisation can be carved into such pieces. There are overlapping grey zones. There will always be these zones.

What a change of direction...QMS, EMS, OHSMS, ISMS, etc... are subsets of the continuum known as enterprise management. Any organization has to be managed in a holistic manner, addressing multiple stakeholders expectations. However, the question at hand is: See the title of this thread.
Nice try, but no cigar.

 

[SteelMaiden]

Re: Does ISO 9001 have anything to do with safety at working place?

I am not so sure that anyone is trying to divide anything. You have some experienced auditors telling you that your 9001 auditor shouldn't be writing nonconformances because the OSHA (or whatever occupational safety department rules your area) violations were found, but instead a simple "hey I saw this and you should do something about it".

At my company, we always tell our auditors to make sure to bring anything they see to our attention, as it can only make us better, and we stress to our employees that all of our systems are like a jigsaw puzzle, none complete without all the others. But, still, I would not want an ISO 9001 surveillance citing a nonconformance because a person walked through a roll up door instead of a man door. It does not affect the product, process, customer satisfaction but it is in direct violation of our safety system. I also wouldn't expect the 9001 auditor to ask questons about our environmental aspects or impacts (even though you could say that siimilarly, that would tie in to regualatory/statutory requirements). No one is insinuating that it is not important, it is just not the purpose of the ISO 9001 standard. UNLESS, you have included safety in your QMS.

 

[potdar]

Re: Does ISO 9001 have anything to do with safety at working place?

The discussion seems to have quietly given a burial while I was away. I believe everyone seems to have agreed (at least not contested) that the various standards are not watertight compartments in an organisation and that it has to be looked at in a holistic manner by everybody - including an auditor of whatever standard.

I couldn't however digest the legal tangle.

There is a difference between REPORTING the unsafe situation and writing an NC against a NON-APPLICABLE Standard. If you deny quality system certification to an organization due to a non-related discrepancy, such as an environmental or occupational health violation, you are violating ISO/IEC Guide 62. Your CB can be taken to court for that.

If I were auditing a site where I detected unsafe practices, I would report this to the organization, and if the situation was serious enough, I would simply leave the premises.

Leaving the premises. Wouldnt that amount to denial of QMS certification? And the attendant consequences thereof?

What a customer can do in such a situation as per the guide is to appeal to the CB or at the most complain to the AB.

By the way, which court of which land recognises Guide 62?

 

[Paul Simpson]

Re: Does ISO 9001 have anything to do with safety at working place?

The discussion seems to have quietly given a burial while I was away. I believe everyone seems to have agreed (at least not contested) that the various standards are not watertight compartments in an organisation and that it has to be looked at in a holistic manner by everybody - including an auditor of whatever standard.

I think you assume too much. The fact that some people (like me) have decided to save our energy does not mean that we have accepted your argument - merely that we no longer see any benefit (for us and the readers of the thread) in continuing to bang our respective heads against a brick wall.

I couldn't however digest the legal tangle.

Perhaps this is the problem. 15 years ago the CB I worked for spent many man hours in investigating the legal position of a CB and came up with the guidance for auditors that you do not accept. Ah well, perhaps everyone is marching out of time and it is you that is correct.

What a customer can do in such a situation as per the guide is to appeal to the CB or at the most complain to the AB.

Perhaps we could abide by the principles of quality assurance and eliminate the problem at source by making sure auditors don't raise incorrect non compliances?

By the way, which court of which land recognises Guide 62?

Not sure of your argument here. Any court will consider accreditation of a CB in any legal case involving management systems certification.

 

[tyker]

Re: Does ISO 9001 have anything to do with safety at working place?

Calm down, Paul, it's nearly the weekend.

Paul
How many times do I have to tell you?

 

[potdar]

Re: Does ISO 9001 have anything to do with safety at working place?

Perhaps this is the problem. 15 years ago the CB I worked for spent many man hours in investigating the legal position of a CB and came up with the guidance for auditors that you do not accept. Ah well, perhaps everyone is marching out of time and it is you that is correct.

Maybe people who are presently involved with the legal positions can shed a better light.

Perhaps we could abide by the principles of quality assurance and eliminate the problem at source by making sure auditors don't raise incorrect non compliances?

Definitely yes. There is always an option of walking out.

Not sure of your argument here. Any court will consider accreditation of a CB in any legal case involving management systems certification.

If I go to the court in your land with a petition stating "Auditor A of certification body Z came to audit our organisation against standard ISO 9001:2000 on date 9999999 and walked out on us refusing a certificate even though we met all requirements of the standard in full. This contravenes the requirements of Guide 62 issue 4. Hence we may be compensated by amount X and auditor A and MD B of CB Z should be put behind the bars...." would your court admit my petition?

I dont know what requirements are contravened, but I'm told they are.

 

[potdar]

Re: Does ISO 9001 have anything to do with safety at working place?

Paul
How many times do I have to tell you?

I envy you guys. It seems to be a perpetual weekend for you.

Herearounds situation is not so cool

Anyways Cheers to you

 

[Paul Simpson]

Re: Does ISO 9001 have anything to do with safety at working place?

Maybe people who are presently involved with the legal positions can shed a better light.

Good idea. I haven't heard of any CBs in court as part of a legal action regarding safety- perhaps other covers have some information.

Definitely yes. There is always an option of walking out.

In UK law there is a duty of care on individuals to take care of their own safety (and that of others). So if I believe I am at risk I am legally bound to leave the premises.

If I go to the court in your land with a petition stating "Auditor A of certification body Z came to audit our organisation against standard ISO 9001:2000 on date 9999999 and walked out on us refusing a certificate even though we met all requirements of the standard in full. This contravenes the requirements of Guide 62 issue 4. Hence we may be compensated by amount X and auditor A and MD B of CB Z should be put behind the bars...." would your court admit my petition?

I dont know what requirements are contravened, but I'm told they are.

This is a different argument. If, as a CB, I refuse to certify an organisation for no good reason then I am in breach of accreditation criteria (can't remember where) as I am obliged to offer my services to anyone who wants them.

If the company is breaking the law that would be my defence that my decision not to work with a company is not unreasonable.

I can't imagine many companies taking me to court when my defence is going to reflect badly on them and possibly lead to criminal action on them by the government for breaches of health & safety law.

 

[tyker]

Re: Does ISO 9001 have anything to do with safety at working place?

If I go to the court in your land with a petition stating "Auditor A of certification body Z came to audit our organisation against standard ISO 9001:2000 on date 9999999 and walked out on us refusing a certificate even though we met all requirements of the standard in full. This contravenes the requirements of Guide 62 issue 4. Hence we may be compensated by amount X and auditor A and MD B of CB Z should be put behind the bars...." would your court admit my petition?

I dont know what requirements are contravened, but I'm told they are.

The legal jurisdiction is normally defined within the contract with the registration body. This would be a civil matter so, in the UK at least, prison wouldn't be an issue but compensation could be awarded if the registrar or auditor acted improperly. However, no employee can be required to work in an unsafe environment and, if the auditor judged his health and safety was being put at risk, he has both the right and responsibility to avoid the risk.

I have walked out of such situations where I believed the working environment was unsafe. One, a vehicle workshop, I listed in a previous post. The other two were in Austria and Italy. In both cases, I believed particular protective equipment (face masks to avoid particulate inhalation) were necessary. This would have been the norm in the UK but was considered unusual in those countries. In both cases, the organizations changed their working practices, after I rasied the issue, and made the PPE mandatory for their employees too.

What is considered a safe working practice varies around the world. The UK is highly regulated in this field and I've seen safety standards throughout Europe aand the USA which would not pass muster at home. That has to be handled with tact but also without compromise to my own well being.

I agree with Sidney and Paul that such safety issues are not covered by the scope of ISO 9001. Unlike Paul, I would always reference safety issues in my report, but not as ISO 9001 nonconformities. I would want to ensure that the organization, my employer and any colleagues carrying out subsequent visits were aware of my concerns.