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Interesting Topic Does Lean hold the key to success? Is Lean the ideal vehicle for moving forward?

Mike S.

An Early 'Cover'
Manoj Mathur said:
WCM enables the organization to aim at Zero Accidents, Zero Defects, Zero Pollution, Zero Losses, Zero Breakdowns and Zero Customer Complaints through Zero Abnormality Movement.

World Class Manufacturing (WCM) is a unique strategy for Enterprise Excellence through focus on Manufacturing.

The process involves a cultural transformation for an Abnormality Free Culture.
With all due respect, when I see something hyped as wildly as the first and third quotes above, my bullcrap detector starts to beep. IMO you have "zero" chance of any organization ever obtaining that.

That said, "WCM" may indeed have value inhelping organizations improve. Please explain why it is "unique" and give us some examples where it is used with great results.
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Does lean hold the key to success

I am a little disappointed that this thread has ended so soon.

Perhaps this tid-bit of perspective is worthy of continuance, or I simply missed the boat and we broke off into other threads.

I believe we missed an important characteristic of lean, WCM, "The leanest, best in class, total quality, highest sigma possible, statistically controlled, optimized business and manufacturing and service system ever"...etc.

One of the main purposes of lean is to increase market share ... with this being one of the ultimate goals, there is no need to reduce head count. In fact, the opposite should occur. Which is one of the reasons for keeping the key ppl who contributed to reduction in labor in the first place. ( to help continue to reduce manpower ).

We are not here just to eliminate waste, and provide a better product at the lowest cost possible, we are here to crush competition.

(also, exceptional insite from Ilias, and Randy).
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Manoj Mathur

Quite Involved in Discussions
Lean - WCM Way


I would love to talk / share / add / clarification on WCM. Why not it is my job as well as hobby to implement WCM. Regarding Mike S.
why it is "unique" and give us some examples where it is used with great results."

I would say certainly it is unique because WCM starts with people, manage with manufacturing and ends with financial results. Its uniqueness is exhibits in WCM Model itself.

My limitation is that I can not attach the files to Cove but I am ready to share the case studies wherein companies of A.V. Birla group has adopted WCM Conepts and gained substantially.

Jim Wynne

Super Moderator
asutherland said:
One of the main purposes of lean is to increase market share ... with this being one of the ultimate goals, there is no need to reduce head count.
So if part of the problem is that there are too many people, we shouldn't address that problem, or are you saying that we should just rearrange the chairs?

asutherland said:
In fact, the opposite should occur.
If part of the problem is too many people, we should solve the problem by hiring more people?

asutherland said:
Which is one of the reasons for keeping the key ppl who contributed to reduction in labor in the first place. ( to help continue to reduce manpower ).
But you just got through saying that "...there is no need to reduce head count."


What I am saying is, do not reduce head count, reduce man hours

Attrition will will take care of the head count automatically.

pradeep sharma

Since there is an emphasis on Lean tools, techniques and philosophies in this century. Does the group believe that Lean shall be transformed by the needs of western business practices or, shall Lean transform the western concepts of business practices?
Deming, Crosby, Juran, Hendry Ford, Toyoda and many others have certainly contributed to the modern structure of Lean. Does the group believe that Lean is an ideal vehicle for moving forward in this century, the theories and practices of the Quality Gurus mentioned?
lean thinking is amazing , working and living in lean culture help us to make our life lean , clean and green.
tomorow those will not follow lean will be out of the business,



How does the Lean methodology help innovate new products ?
As per my thinking lean is culture change which will make you think in terms of improving existing processes and make them more efficient and effective.

I hope you know that when people start to work effectively, they will gain more valuable time to think out side the box thereby innovating new things.


Citizen Kane

Hi !

In my experience, there is a big difference between LEAN - the theory & good figures and LEAN - the real situation.

There are a lot of training, workshops, stram value workshops, kanban simulations - and so on - in witch people understand (more or less) what it is about, they do calculation, make simulations with building a robot, etc. But beyond this, there is the day to day production. After comming from a lean class and trying to implement in production - there is the problem.

My opinion is that the solution isn't to take a model and force it over some situation - and, from all the companies I've meet, this is the lean approach. We belive that we have lean, toyota way, kaizen - but in fact we have only models applied without an analysis.

4 relevant & common examples:

1. it's said to be JIT with the supplied materials for production - but for Toyota is JIT because they have the supplier factory near their factory - for us is 1 continent away !

2. Let's implement a line and make U-shape assmelby line - but we have a plant with 2 WRHs - one for incoming, one for delivery - so, here, the lean approach would have been an I-shape line - but no, "U-shape is lean !"

3. "People are the most important resource of the company !" (you will find this mention in every management university, training, MBA, etc.) - in NONE of the companies I've worked with the situation isn't like that ! And this comming from the shareholdres & managers down. And here I mean the real situation, the one beyod the beautiful presentations and power points.

4. We talk and talk about the importance of Quality dept. in plant, we look at Juran's theories and we mention them in presentation, but, when it comes to the situation of the Q dept. in production you will find (in most of the cases, no offence to the exceptions !):

- Q guy with no technical background that makes judgements on production processes
- Q dept. is special and high above the production
- finger pointing
- "it's not my job" atitude
- "you done this before, you do now" - even if is my job to do it
- "I only mention bad things, but I have no responsability"
- "I am PQM (project Q manager), but you must tell me what to do and I don't have any responsability" - even he/she is not a simple resource

, so, for me, the Q dept. is the higher dissapointment from what I've espected ! - within 65-75% of the companies/Q guys I've worked with, this is the situation.

In fact, as a 1st step, I think is more a problem of mentality and how professional are we. After that we can talk about models.

Another thing is: Who sais we must take some other's models and apply them to us ? (And I don't mean this in a "patriotic" way.) Sometimes we must think ourselfes at some models and, if what we use is ergonomic and works with excellent results, why change ?

Also, I think the breakthroughs for higher performance comes when you start thinking in other way the most of the people do. I saw some 6 months ago a approach of a japanese guy (no toyota/lean mentality related !) who started in Cambodgia some manufacturing factories. He had no supervisors, no overtime, no due dates. Only people assigned to doing task and only the mention that they mus work honestly. So, with no preasure, no supervising, no lean, no u-shapes, kaizen, gemba, etc. ! And the guy grew his (or, in fact, his and the peoples - because they also were participants to the profit) business 3-4 times in several years. He built a village for 150 pers. that were working for him, from the profit money, for free. Only for them to have work and earn money. If you would have asked some westerner corporate guy, I'm sour he would not gave him no chance for his business !

I think, with all this models, sometimes we forget we (or the people that works for us) are really humans, not engineers, nor operators, nor machines.
Hi !

In my experience, there is a big difference between LEAN - the theory & good figures and LEAN - the real situation.

All very true!
One of the points most true quality professionals have been trying to make for years is that foolish folks value form over substance and fall into a trap of taking some individual points out of context and deluding themselves into believing those few points are ALL they need. The four bit word for this idiotic practice has been used before here in the Cove: ISOGESIS
Reading something into a document. One starts with a belief and searches a document for supporting passages. Often used with reference to the Bible. A potential hazard is that the interpreter may quote a verse out of context without considering the rest of the passage or the rest of the Bible.
The most damning aspect is seen where a company CEO picks the LEAN concept of "reducing employee count by making work more efficient" and insanely reduces employee count, but never tries to make the work more efficient.
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