Definition Does "quality planning" include "establishment of quality objectives"?

Y

Yarik

#1
On one hand, ISO 9000:2005 explicitly says that setting "quality objectives" is a focus of "quality planning":

3.2.9
quality planning
part of quality management (3.2.8) focused on setting quality objectives(3.2.5) and specifying necessary operational processes (3.4.1) and related resources to fulfil the quality objectives
Also, in ISO 9001:2008, the clause 5.4 Planning includes the subclause 5.4.1 Quality Objectives that expicitly talks about establishing "quality objectives".

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On the other hand, definition of "quality management" in ISO 9000:2005 includes a note that suggests that establishment of "quality objectives" and "quality planning" are separate parts of "quality management":

3.2.8
quality management
coordinated activities to direct and control an organization (3.3.1) with regard to quality (3.1.1)

NOTE Direction and control with regard to quality generally includes establishment of the quality policy (3.2.4) and quality objectives (3.2.5), quality planning (3.2.9), quality control (3.2.10), quality assurance (3.2.11) and quality improvement (3.2.12).
Also, in ISO 9001:2008, the subclause 5.4.2 Quality management system planning implies that quality objectives are supposed to be set before planning of quality management system begins:

5.4.2 Quality management system planning

Top management shall ensure that

a) the planning of the quality management system is carried out in order to meet the requirements given in 4.1, as well as the quality objectives, and

b) the integrity of the quality management system is maintained when changes to the quality management system are planned and implemented.
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Maybe it is just me, but I feel confused. In particular:

(Q1) Is "setting quality objectives" a part of "quality planning"?

(Q2) Is section 5.4 Planning of ISO 9001:2008 about "quality planning" only or about some other (broader?) kind of planning?

(Q3) What exactly is the meaning of "planning of the quality management system" discussed in clause 5.4.2? How is it related (if at all) to "quality planning", taking into account that "quality planning" is a part of "quality management"?
 
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Jim Wynne

Leader
Admin
#2
(Q1) Is "quality planning" a part of "quality planning"?

(Q2) Is section 5.4 Planning of ISO 9001:2008 about "quality planning" only or about some other (broader?) kind of planning?

(Q3) What exactly is the meaning of "planning of the quality management system" discussed in clause 5.4.2? How is it related (if at all) to "quality planning", taking into account that "quality planning" is a part of "quality management"?
If one were trying to develop a quality system in accord with ISO 9001, how would the answers to these questions affect the effort?
 
Y

Yarik

#3
If one were trying to develop a quality system in accord with ISO 9001, how would the answers to these questions affect the effort?
I'm just trying to understand the meaning of clause 5.4 in general and subclause 5.4.2.a in particular...

BTW, there was a nasty typo in (Q1) and I fixed it...
 

howste

Thaumaturge
Trusted Information Resource
#4
On the other hand, definition of "quality management" in ISO 9000:2005 includes a note that suggests that establishment of "quality objectives" and "quality planning" are separate parts of "quality management"
Just because they are each defined as separate terms, doesn't imply that one can't be part of another.
Also, in ISO 9001:2008, the subclause 5.4.2 Quality management system planning implies that quality objectives are supposed to be set before planning of quality management system begins
... or that quality planning is a process where some parts (quality objectives) are set before other parts.
(Q1) Is "quality planning" a part of "quality planning"?
No. It is quality planning.
(Q2) Is section 5.4 Planning of ISO 9001:2008 about "quality planning" only or about some other (broader?) kind of planning?
IMO 5.4 is about quality planning.
(Q3) What exactly is the meaning of "planning of the quality management system" discussed in clause 5.4.2? How is it related (if at all) to "quality planning", taking into account that "quality planning" is a part of "quality management"?
IMO planning of the quality management system is the same as quality planning. Don't forget this one:
ISO 9000:2005 said:
3.2.2
management system
system
(3.2.1) to establish policy and objectives and to achieve those objectives
Maybe it is just me...
Yes, you're definitely over analyzing it. :notme:
 

Randy

Super Moderator
#6
:cool:Amazing...being able to achieve a quality objective without a plan as how to do so.........Saves on time & paper I guess;)
 
B

brahmaiah

#7
'Quality Objectives' should be understood as goals ie measurable objectives(targets for performance)
Quality Planning is the scheme of things you have to do to achieve the objectives set by you.
Here we should avoid confusing ourselves refering to ISO 9000-2005.
ISO9001-2008 doesnot ask you to follow any other standard.Other standards are there for academic reference only.When you are implementing ISO9001-2008 we should focus on only ISO 9001.
V.J.Brahmaiah
 
G

Geoff Withnell

#8
:cool:Amazing...being able to achieve a quality objective without a plan as how to do so.........Saves on time & paper I guess;)
Or even better yet, having a plan without having objectives for it! How could you fail?!

Geoff Withnell
 

Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
#9
...Here we should avoid confusing ourselves refering to ISO 9000-2005.

ISO9001-2008 does not ask you to follow any other standard.Other standards are there for academic reference only.When you are implementing ISO9001-2008 we should focus on only ISO 9001.
V.J.Brahmaiah
NO, no no...just the opposite! ISO 9000 and ISO 9004 are clearly part of the ISO 9001 program, and are there to help you better understand the intent and direction for implementation. Not reading them is why so many companies struggle to make sense of their programs.
 

howste

Thaumaturge
Trusted Information Resource
#10
Here we should avoid confusing ourselves refering to ISO 9000-2005.
ISO9001-2008 doesnot ask you to follow any other standard.Other standards are there for academic reference only.When you are implementing ISO9001-2008 we should focus on only ISO 9001.
V.J.Brahmaiah
What?!!! So what does ISO 9001 mean when it refers to ISO 9000:2005 as a normative reference that is "indispensable for the application of this document"? ISO 9000 is the document containing the official definitions of the terms used in ISO 9001. Check your facts, my friend. :read:
 
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