Does TQM fit in with ISO 9001:2000 and QS-9000 (now TS 16949)?

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D

Don Winton

#2
<font COLOR=RED><BLOCKQUOTE>HOW DOES TQM FIT IN WITH ISO/QS9000 QUALITY SYSTEMS.</BLOCKQUOTE></font>

Typically, it does not.

Seriously, ISO/QS9000 quality models are just a base for a management system. Remember, the title of ISO 9001/2:

<CENTER><FONT COLOR="#DF0218">Quality Systems-Model for Quality Assurance in…</FONT></CENTER>

The key word is Model. It needs to be remembered that the Models are just the basis for effective systems management, not the rule. You must build upon the model if an effective system is to be established.

Regards,

Don
 

Kevin Mader

One of THE Original Covers!
Staff member
Admin
#4
Don,

Your distinction between a System and a Model for a System is well taken.

In another forum, an individual was looking for advice about starting a Quality System from scratch. Some of the respondents to the request recommended the ISO standard as a starting point. I would agree that the Standard can help to assist a person in the setup of a system, but much more is needed.

TQM is a management philosophy and more. The quality tools present in this philosophy help to steer an organization to success. It has a profound impact on the culture of an organization when implemented. ISO as the model does not (and perhaps the reason why so many organizations are dumbfounded at the lack of results after registration). The elements give basic skeletal requiments, suggestions external in nature. TQM is intrinsic. Still, the two can live in harmony in an organization, and offer balance to business and quality initiatives.

Back to the group.....

Regards,

Kevin
 
A

Andy Bassett

#5
Hopefully this is not too far off message. I am just reading a book called Consulting for Real People publsied by McGraw Hill that i would recommend.

At one point they state that an Organisational Life Model is made up of three parts;

1. Systems Processes and Procedures
2. Task
3. Human Processes

Now i am currently struggling with a company that has some problems to implement their well thought out processes. Basically they are all over the place on the subject 'Task'. They dont know what lies in the future for the company and even why it exists (Strange but true).
As far as human processes are concerned the vagaries of their particular industry group means that they have no contact or experience with Teamwork, Process Improvement, Conflict Resolution. etc

The moral is that working on systems or processes themselves has just a 33% chance of success.

The link to this post is that ISO concentrates very much on the Systems part, whilst TQM is likely to also contain some element of human processes. Interesting without due focus given to the task neither approach is likely to be successful.

Does all of this have a real-life application? For myself i will probably not look at more ISO projects unless their is a financial commitment to addressing the human process element (ie a budget for Teamwork Training). Additionally i would caution a company from using ISO as a way of 'finding lost direction' (as some companies clearly do). They and their staff should be very clear on why they exist and where they are going before they attempt to address their systems side.

Regards


------------------
Andy B
 

Kevin Mader

One of THE Original Covers!
Staff member
Admin
#6
Andy,

Thanks for the tip on the book. I'll have to add that to my growing list.

The 33% is probably a bunch higher than it actually is. Systems have interdependent subsystems. If any one of the subsystems is malfunctioning, the impact can cause total failure. If one is totally missing, then failure is eminent. I think your approach to your clientel is a wise one.

Regards,

Kevin
 
S

sayangalina

#8
Hello..

First time in this forum:bigwave: . Very informative blog:applause: .

I have worked for 5 years in aircraft manufacturing company, now further my study, full time student. Although my previous company is accredated to AS9100, ISO and NADCAP, but we do not have formally implementing any TQM tools. The company provide high quality products, and have good systems and documentation. We have gain few medals from the customers. But sadly to acheive the high quality product we scraped nearly half of the parts in first year of production. This being re-occur to the next projects, again and again. Sometimes we have more than 5 times FAIs for the same type of machining process.

Quality system is to make things in control and for others to have confidents in us. Customer just want to have high quality, safety and usable products. They do not want to know how much we lost or how hard we work to produce the product. TQM is for our own company's sake. To do things right. This is where TQM appears, Quality is profit not expenses.

Managements always have doubt in implementing TQM. They think training is cost and waste production time, (although they not declare it, but its the actual senario in most of the company). For them on job training is enough, learned while you are working, learned from experiences. They know about TQM but they have no time to implement or call outsiders to teach the workers. They just keep the knowledge to themselves, just for the sake of answering auditors and customers. For scraps and non-conformance, they just blame the workers for not being responsible enough in their work.

Alin
 

BradM

Staff member
Admin
#9
Hello Alin! Welcome to the Cove!

Great first post.

Personally, I think TQM is a want-to, while ISO/QS9000/etc. is a have-to. So, instead of looking a TQM as a method of gaining a long-term competitive advantage, it is something they avoid altogether.

Believe it or not, I'm OK with that. I would rather an organization say up-front they are not interested in something, than try to execute a half-hearted implementation, and not support it down the way.
 

Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
#10
Hello..

First time in this forum:bigwave: . Very informative blog:applause: .

I have worked for 5 years in aircraft manufacturing company, now further my study, full time student. Although my previous company is accredated to AS9100, ISO and NADCAP, but we do not have formally implementing any TQM tools. The company provide high quality products, and have good systems and documentation. We have gain few medals from the customers. But sadly to acheive the high quality product we scraped nearly half of the parts in first year of production. This being re-occur to the next projects, again and again. Sometimes we have more than 5 times FAIs for the same type of machining process.

Quality system is to make things in control and for others to have confidents in us. Customer just want to have high quality, safety and usable products. They do not want to know how much we lost or how hard we work to produce the product. TQM is for our own company's sake. To do things right. This is where TQM appears, Quality is profit not expenses.

Managements always have doubt in implementing TQM. They think training is cost and waste production time, (although they not declare it, but its the actual senario in most of the company). For them on job training is enough, learned while you are working, learned from experiences. They know about TQM but they have no time to implement or call outsiders to teach the workers. They just keep the knowledge to themselves, just for the sake of answering auditors and customers. For scraps and non-conformance, they just blame the workers for not being responsible enough in their work.

Alin

If you have 50% scrap, then learning on the job is obviously not enough.

Quality is free if it is done well. That takes good training and good learning.

If managers do not support it, then they deserve the poor results they will probably get.

And, customers generally won't care if you have high internal costs, as long as their product is good. I am not sure they should care.
 
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