Does Training come under HR department?

#21
I'm always open to different ways to meet the requirements of the standard, but I'm struggling with how production records can be apporpriately used as records of education, training, skills, and experience. Can you elaborate?
Sure.... The important part of 6.2 is one of competency. Production records are the best measure of that. However, 6.2.2 e) specifically mentions eduction, training, skills and experience. Granted, production records do not reflect any eduction and training (but those do not necessarily equate to competence). But there are no better records to show both skills and experience. If I have acceptable production records (in both quantity and quality), then I have to have the necessary skills for that job, and the records indicate that I have experience (otherwise no record could have been generated).

Now, with that said..... In order for production records to be useful, they HAVE to be individual production records. Or as a minimum, able to be broken down by person. Aggregate records are okay, but only if there are no devations.

Hope that helps.
 
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SteelMaiden

Super Moderator
Super Moderator
#22
DB - you still need evidence of competence of some type, say, a performance review or skills test. I dont see how an auditor would take your word that an employee was competent without some objective proof.
I'm always open to different ways to meet the requirements of the standard, but I'm struggling with how production records can be apporpriately used as records of education, training, skills, and experience. Can you elaborate?
I believe that he's stating that if Joe produces, on average, the same or more product with the same or less reject as the other operators doing the same thing, you can consider him competent. While that is certainly logical, you'd still have to defend the comparisons...what if they are all incompetent?;) I agree that production records can be used as a part of the competency evals, I still think there are other things that need to be recorded. I like the skills tests, as opposed to the tests after training that only show how well you retain info. Skill testing actually shows that you've demonstrated the appropriate methods and gotten the results. But again, imho, these are all parts of the larger view.
 

Randy

Super Moderator
#23
Dear all
Please tell me that is training department is under the HR or what?

ANAND
As has been stated before going off splitting hairs and on wild tangents...NO!

It doesn't matter, nobody cares and you can do what you want that suits your needs. Unique concept...You can do what you think is best.
 
#24
I believe that he's stating that if Joe produces, on average, the same or more product with the same or less reject as the other operators doing the same thing, you can consider him competent. While that is certainly logical, you'd still have to defend the comparisons...what if they are all incompetent?;) I agree that production records can be used as a part of the competency evals, I still think there are other things that need to be recorded. I like the skills tests, as opposed to the tests after training that only show how well you retain info. Skill testing actually shows that you've demonstrated the appropriate methods and gotten the results. But again, imho, these are all parts of the larger view.
I don't think you necessarily need the comparison. If Joe meets production quantity and quality targets, then I am saying Joe is competent. Remember we decide what competence is. And if I set production quantity and quality (and/or whatever other) targets, then that is what I am basing competence on. If Joe meets them, then Joe is competent. I don't care if Joe has an eduction, or training.... I want my production targets to be met. And to me, that is what competence is. Joe's production records will prove him.
 
#25
As has been stated before going off splitting hairs and on wild tangents...NO!

It doesn't matter, nobody cares and you can do what you want that suits your needs. Unique concept...You can do what you think is best.
OOPS !! Yes, Randy you are correct I derailed the thread.... again! :(
 
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Big Jim

Super Moderator
#26
Sure.... The important part of 6.2 is one of competency. Production records are the best measure of that. However, 6.2.2 e) specifically mentions eduction, training, skills and experience. Granted, production records do not reflect any eduction and training (but those do not necessarily equate to competence). But there are no better records to show both skills and experience. If I have acceptable production records (in both quantity and quality), then I have to have the necessary skills for that job, and the records indicate that I have experience (otherwise no record could have been generated).

Now, with that said..... In order for production records to be useful, they HAVE to be individual production records. Or as a minimum, able to be broken down by person. Aggregate records are okay, but only if there are no devations.

Hope that helps.
And those individual production records are less effort to maintain than an ocassional entry on a training log? An entry that may show "Tom Smith has received on the job training from Bob Jones to operate the XYZ equipment to make ABC parts".

Also, how are you going to use production records to show that the managers are competent to manage? That is a area that will be harder to show without education and/or experience records.
 
#27
As Randy, pointed out... we've strayed :topic:

And I know this has been hashed out on at least one other thread, but you are making this a lot more complex than it needs to be. Your normal production records you keep everyday anyways is all you need (depending on size and complexity of the company). How do you know any employee is competent? Because they do an acceptable job. Period. Do I need records for the auditor to see? NO!!!!! Just like I don't need a record that shows an employee understands the quality policy. If it don't make sense for your organization, then don't do it.

But I shall quit and allow the thread to resume on its intended course.
 

Randy

Super Moderator
#28
The conversation is interesting....

What we may have is an organization that has been told how things "must" be to conform or meet QMS requirements and it just isn't so.
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#29
The conversation is interesting....

What we may have is an organization that has been told how things "must" be to conform or meet QMS requirements and it just isn't so.
Yes, and another possibility is that the training function is presently a hot potato in the OP's company and no one wants to take a'holt of it.
 
L

LSS Master

#30
It seems to me that the discussion has gotten wrapped around the axle of ISO 9000.

Training exists in many forms and in many companies that are not ISO 9000 registered. Continuous improvement implies continuous training and, at its best, leads to a Learning Organization being created.

In this context, learning is an integral part of every aspect of the organization. Thus, all departments and functions within the organization are training and educating their employees and managers.

All of that being said, I agree with an earlier post, which stated that training can be in any department in which the organization thinks it will add value.
 
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