Does TS 16949 require us to have an internal laboratory?

[darkafar]

TS clause 7.6.3.1 states the requirements of an organization’s internal laboratory.

TS clause 1.2 states, “The only permitted exclusions for this Technical Specification relate to 7.3 where the organization is not responsible for product design and development.”

Clause 7.6.3.1 is not a sub-clause of 7.3, so I thought that TS requires an organization to have an internal laboratory, loud and clear.

Then I read clause 7.6.2, which states, “Records of the calibration/verification activity……shall include….an assessment of the impact of out-of-specification condition.”

By the clause 1.2 rule, this is a requirement. But we have practical difficulty, what if there is no out-of-specification happening during calibration? So I think what clause 7.6.2 actually means is that we should assess the impact of out-of-specification if out-of-specification situation happens.

Back to clause 7.6.3.1, imagine we are a very small factory. Our only process is stamping metal plate. We use caliper to measure the dimensions before and after the stamping. We send our caliper to a qualified external laboratory for calibration periodically. Why do I need an internal laboratory?

So I begin to think that internal laboratory is not a requirement, but an option. The intent of TS clause 7.6.3 is that we need to have laboratory, internal or external, to guarantee measurement traceability. But we don’t have to have both.

What do you think?

 

[AndyN]

Re: Does TS require us to have an internal laboratory?

In the context of an automotive supplier it's hard to conceive that there isn't some kind of I T & ME calibration and/or product testing being performed within that supplier's facilities.

It's very unusual, although entirely possible, that all calibration and product inspections/layouts/functional testing are contracted out. Only in that case would the supplier organization not have to meet the requirements o an 'internal lab'......

 

[darkafar]

Re: Does TS require us to have an internal laboratory?

In the context of an automotive supplier it's hard to conceive that there isn't some kind of I T & ME calibration and/or product testing being performed within that supplier's facilities.

It's very unusual, although entirely possible, that all calibration and product inspections/layouts/functional testing are contracted out. Only in that case would the supplier organization not have to meet the requirements o an 'internal lab'......

Are you suggesting we should let laboratory scope includes the on-line inspections?

Now imagine a big factory, which has all kinds of testing, calibrations, inspections, on-line or off-line. Many of my friends prefer to separate the on-line inspection from other types of inspection, testing, calibration, because the environment is different. They call the facilities used for these activities laboratories, but they don’t consider the on-line inspections part of the laboratory activities. Do you think they are wrong?

If you don’t think they are wrong, aren’t we double standarding by requiring the small factory to include on-line inspection into laboratory scope, while not requiring the big factory to include on-line inspection into laboratory scope?

 

[AndyN]

Re: Does TS require us to have an internal laboratory?

You are correct about the in-process inspections. These are not labs.

I was thinking more about the PPAP-type of inspections and testing. Done before production and often in a 'lab' somewhere. If these are done outside, then no lab is necessary, internally. I guess even if the stampings could be ully dimensionally verified by hand tools, then a lab isn't required, either. Do you not verify any tooling on a cmm or similar? Or is that also sent outside?

 

[darkafar]

Re: Does TS require us to have an internal laboratory?

I think I got what you mean. The layout inspection probably needs to be done off-line in a “laboratory”. Since PPAP says “Inspection and testing for PPAP shall be performed by a qualified laboratory as defined by customer requirements”, I guess even if we use the same caliper, but at different location, we still have a laboratory of some kind

 

[Howard Atkins]

Re: Does TS require us to have an internal laboratory?

The definition of laboratory in TS is

3.1.4
laboratory
facility for inspection, test or calibration that may include, but is not limited to, chemical, metallurgical, dimensional, physical, electrical or reliability testing

This includes almost everything

 

[dna_leri]

Re: Does TS require us to have an internal laboratory?

internal laboratory is not a requirement, but an option. The intent of TS clause 7.6.3 is that we need to have laboratory, internal or external, to guarantee measurement traceability. But we don’t have to have both.

What do you think?

I completely agree with your statement above. There is no requirement to have an internal laboratory - all the required laboratory inspection, testing & calibration could be done by an external qualified laboratory.

 

[AndyN]

Re: Does TS require us to have an internal laboratory?

I think I got what you mean. The layout inspection probably needs to be done off-line in a “laboratory”. Since PPAP says “Inspection and testing for PPAP shall be performed by a qualified laboratory as defined by customer requirements”, I guess even if we use the same caliper, but at different location, we still have a laboratory of some kind

That's what I was thinking.......