Does your Registrar ask folks "Who's the Management Representative"?

Does your registrar auditor ask folks "who's the MR"?

  • Yes, our auditor has asked that

    Votes: 9 75.0%
  • No, we've never been asked that

    Votes: 3 25.0%

  • Total voters
    12
  • Poll closed .

Randy

Super Moderator
#21
The only "System" that requires specific employee knowledge of the MR that I am aware of is OHSAS 18001. They not only need to know by name who the "company MR" (the member of Top management) is but they must also know who the employee Rep is a well.
 
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P

potdar

#22
As an ex-auditor, I may contribute that the auditor is free to ask anything. And many an auditor do ask "feelers". This question could be asked even to an operator. The answer may be a simple "I don't know."

ISO does't require anyone apart from the management to know who is the MR. The system (QM+Procedures+...) may require many other people to interact with the MR. Of course, they are expected to know who the MR is. If they don't know, that by itself is not NC but the auditor can reach NCs with this knowldge.

Example - departmental heads will submit quality objective performance details to MR, who will collate and present in MRM.
 
B

Bill Pflanz

#23
As an ex-auditor, I may contribute that the auditor is free to ask anything. And many an auditor do ask "feelers". This question could be asked even to an operator. The answer may be a simple "I don't know."

Your description of a feeler question looks like what I call a "gotcha" question whose sole purpose is to try to trap someone into a nonconformance. If you truly know that the correct response should be "I don't know" or "It's not my responsibility" than it does not provide value. The problem with that type of question, the auditee may be intimidated and think they have to respond believing they should know the answer. Althought auditors are free to ask any question, it should be done with the idea that it will help management to determine if the process is working and not whether you can find a noncomformance.

Bill Pflanz
 
P

potdar

#24
Bill

I full agree with you on this issue. The auditor has come there with a certain purpose and not to while away his time. And his purpose is not negative.

I would request you to once again read my post in full.

Say as an auditor I find that a certain internal audit NC / CA initiated by the MR shows as 'open' in his records. On visiting the relevant department I find that the action is taken. But the department doesn't know that there is a certain record that needs to be updated! (real life experience - many times over). The finding is that the system is working but the loop is not getting closed. There are problems in communication.

"Sir do you know who your MR is?"

I dont count this as NC hunting. This is a diagnostic exercise included in the job of an auditor.
 

Coury Ferguson

Moderator here to help
Staff member
Super Moderator
#25
Bill

I full agree with you on this issue. The auditor has come there with a certain purpose and not to while away his time. And his purpose is not negative.

I would request you to once again read my post in full.

Say as an auditor I find that a certain internal audit NC / CA initiated by the MR shows as 'open' in his records. On visiting the relevant department I find that the action is taken. But the department doesn't know that there is a certain record that needs to be updated! (real life experience - many times over). The finding is that the system is working but the loop is not getting closed. There are problems in communication.

"Sir do you know who your MR is?"

I dont count this as NC hunting. This is a diagnostic exercise included in the job of an auditor.
After reading your entire post, I agree will Bill Pflanz's comment below. It still does not make the MR responsible and since there really isn't a requirement in ISO9001:2000 that requires everyone to know who the MR is, but I may agree that maybe there might be a NC regarding the CA not being updated, but that would be it, nothing to do with knowing who the MR is.

Bill Pflanz said:
Your description of a feeler question looks like what I call a "gotcha" question whose sole purpose is to try to trap someone into a nonconformance. If you truly know that the correct response should be "I don't know" or "It's not my responsibility" than it does not provide value. The problem with that type of question, the auditee may be intimidated and think they have to respond believing they should know the answer. Althought auditors are free to ask any question, it should be done with the idea that it will help management to determine if the process is working and not whether you can find a noncomformance.

Bill Pflanz
I agree with you Bill that the auditor maybe "fishing" for a NC
 
Last edited:
P

potdar

#26
After reading your entire post, I agree will Bill Pflanz's comment below. It still does not make the MR responsible and since there really isn't a requirement in ISO9001:2000 that requires everyone to know who the MR is, but I may agree that maybe there might be a NC regarding the CA not being updated, but that would be it, nothing to do with knowing who the MR is.



I agree with you Bill that the auditor maybe "fishing" for a NC
Coury,

I shall start with a few basics from my schooldays. the auditor's job is not to confirm conformance, nor to prove nonconformance. He is there to assess whether the system is defined and functioning properly, or failing. The method to be used by him is also well defined in his name itself.

Audi in latin (greek?) is related to "sound" (audio, audition..). An auditor is a person who listens. Not someone who grills people, lectures, sermonises, advises, thrusts his views. He is expected to make people speak and listens. Any problems he encounters, he is expected to judge whether they are one time human errors or system failures.

Any NC issued by an auditor is not valid if it is not accepted by the auditee. In our case, to issue an NC the auditor need not ask any further questions. If he is an NC hunter, he got his kill.

The feeler is to make an attempt to distinguish between a lapse and an NC. And then why not put it forthright? The auditor doesnt want to give clue of what exactly he wants to know.

Was I sermonising?:D
 
G

Gmayes

#27
Re: Does your registrar ask folks "Who's the Management Rep"?

I'm pretty sure its been asked before on an audit. But not more than once.

Each of my employees has a QMS brochure on their desk, so if they did get asked, and wasn't sure who the 'representative' was by that title, they could find.

Like others, i'm known as the 'ISO Guru'.
 
#28
Diane:
Because it makes no sense to me! Why would an hourly paid person need to know? If an auditor asks a line employee and doesn't get the 'right answer' what does that mean? There's no requirement for anyone to know who the MR is! So no NC, no 'compliance' either..........:)

Authority is demostrated through such issues as effective management review etc.:cool:

Oh, and if someone needs to 'get something' done about the quality system, how about the 'management chain of command' - we're not proposing to avoid that, I hope. Folks get disciplined for not following that......:notme:

Andy
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#29
Diane:
Because it makes no sense to me! Why would an hourly paid person need to know? If an auditor asks a line employee and doesn't get the 'right answer' what does that mean? There's no requirement for anyone to know who the MR is! So no NC, no 'compliance' either..........:)
Andy
Where in your original question does it say anything about "hourly paid" people? You asked if auditors had ever asked, during an audit, who the MR is. Do you think that it would be inappropriate to ask the question of a CEO? Might the CEO's ignorance be meaningful (whether it's considered a nonconformance or not)? If the auditor, upon arrival at the site to be audited, doesn't know who the management rep is, should he not ask someone? If you wanted to know whether auditors were asking hourly employees to identify the MR, you should have said that.
 

Sidney Vianna

Post Responsibly
Staff member
Admin
#30
Registrars are there to assure applicants fulfill the requirements of the standards they are being evaluated against so... why would you think this was NOT an appropriate question for a Registrar to ask?
Hi Diane:bigwave: . You might have misunderstood the question the same way I did when I first read it. The question is not very clear.

What Andy meant to ask if it is a requirement for people working for an organization to know who the MR is. The answer is no. Obviously, the company has to appoint an MR and some people will know who that individual is. But a guy on the shop floor is not required to know who the MR is.
 
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