Does your Registrar ask folks "Who's the Management Representative"?

Does your registrar auditor ask folks "who's the MR"?

  • Yes, our auditor has asked that

    Votes: 9 75.0%
  • No, we've never been asked that

    Votes: 3 25.0%

  • Total voters
    12
  • Poll closed .
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Manoj Mathur

Quite Involved in Discussions
#32
Incidentally, It happens that when I was giving training on the requirement of ISO 9K, 14K and OHSAS 18K, I just threw this question to a group of trainee (Who were 34 in Numbers) and my surprise there was nobody who replied correctly. I told them rightly and now they may not forget. But I was introspecting the things what all happened during training ( I make it compulsory for enhancing Training Effectiveness) , to overcome the surprises that all happened during full day training,
Somebody said Whether it is necessary to know who is MR. Yes it is necessary because when you need to control the document and Records, need to amend/ change the document, there must be up-dation in Master list and all this wo5rk should be in the knowledge of MR. If you do not know who is MR? How will you approach him/her for all changes?
 

Sidney Vianna

Post Responsibly
Staff member
Admin
#33
Whether it is necessary to know who is MR. Yes it is necessary ...
No. It is NOT.

there must be up-dation in Master list and all this wo5rk should be in the knowledge of MR. If you do not know who is MR? How will you approach him/her for all changes?
You are constrained by your paradigm. You can not make all encompassing assertions based on your specific process.
 
L

Laura M

#34
At a recent recert audit at a client this got asked to almost everyone he spoke too. I never got around to asking why he asked when it most certainly is not a requirement. Most folks may not even know the term "management representative" and it may confuse them. Besides, I think it's a better functioning process if the MR just makes sure that ISO is in place, but the specifics are delegated through the organization, making it even less likely that someone on the shop floor knows who holds the title on the org chart.
 
P

potdar

#35
I agree with you Sidney. I still maintain that the auditor has full right to ask the question, he better know whom he should ask it and whom he shouldn't.

There are people in the organisation who have got nothing to do with the MR and they need not even know that some such post / person exists.

On the other hand, there are people in the organisation who are supposed to deal with the MR as defined in the QMS. They are supposed to know who the MR is.

So, lets keep our paradigm limited to whatever is defined in the QMS of the organisation. That does define who is supposed to know about the MR and who need not.
 
#36
After reading all these posts, I still think it's a bizarre question which has no good reason behind it. Even if 'top management' selected the person as the Management Representative, why would someone go ask them who that is? I 'hear' all the responses about getting access to the MR, or similar, however, even if everyone knows the name, height and inside leg measurement, there's no 'benefit' to posing the question. :bonk:
It seems to me that it's another case of lazy auditors and organizations preparing to do anything to pass the audit:frust:

Andy
 

Coury Ferguson

Moderator here to help
Staff member
Super Moderator
#37
I agree with you Sidney. I still maintain that the auditor has full right to ask the question, he better know whom he should ask it and whom he shouldn't.
I don't think that Sidney was saying that the auditor doesn't have the right to ask questions. The point is there is no requirement in ISO9001:2000 that requires that everyone in the organization needs to know who the MR is.

On the other hand, there are people in the organisation who are supposed to deal with the MR as defined in the QMS. They are supposed to know who the MR is.
Could you please identify the people who are dealing with the MR? ISO9001:2000, paragraph 5.5.2 does not state such a requirement. It addresses that Top Management will appoint a representative.

So, lets keep our paradigm limited to whatever is defined in the QMS of the organisation. That does define who is supposed to know about the MR and who need not.
That is exactly the point. There is no requirement that everyone within the organization must know who the MR is.

AndyN said:
After reading all these posts, I still think it's a bizarre question which has no good reason behind it. Even if 'top management' selected the person as the Management Representative, why would someone go ask them who that is? I 'hear' all the responses about getting access to the MR, or similar, however, even if everyone knows the name, height and inside leg measurement, there's no 'benefit' to posing the question.
It seems to me that it's another case of lazy auditors and organizations preparing to do anything to pass the audit

Andy
It is bizarre, but not surprising. This question really has no bearing on the effectiveness of the QMS.
 
Last edited:

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#38
After reading all these posts, I still think it's a bizarre question which has no good reason behind it.
Then I take it that you see no good reason for an auditor to make an attempt to gage the depth of penetration of the system he's auditing. Do you expect auditors to be robots, applying the same yes/no, black/white legalistic interrogatories everywhere they go? Is there no room for using one's experience to develop audit strategy?

Even if 'top management' selected the person as the Management Representative, why would someone go ask them who that is?
Who else has the authority to appoint an MR? Would you not consider it significant if a CEO were to be found ignorant in this regard?

I 'hear' all the responses about getting access to the MR, or similar, however, even if everyone knows the name, height and inside leg measurement, there's no 'benefit' to posing the question.
But is there any benefit in the knowledge? In other words, if it can be shown that in the best companies (irrespective of ISO) people are generally aware of the structure of the hierarchy, and who's responsible for what, and in under-performing companies the opposite is true, how can an attempt to understand the depth of penetration of the system be considered "bizarre"?

It seems to me that it's another case of lazy auditors and organizations preparing to do anything to pass the audit.
Non sequiturs. How can an auditor who is doing more than what's barely necessary be considered lazy? "Lazy" is going through the motions, and doing the same thing today that you did yesterday in a company a thousand miles away, in a completely different industry. I have no idea what "preparing to do anything to pass the audit" means. Would you rather see only the bare minimum necessary to pass the audit? In either case, the auditee will pass, but do you see no value in the auditor actually learning something?
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#40
Jim,

That might have been in response to Diane's deleted responses. It might have been stated, but the comments were deleted. :notme:
No, my response came after reading Diane's. Andy's original question asked whether anyone had seen an auditor asking the question, period. It appears that perhaps he meant to limit it to hourly people, but who knows?
 
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