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Double Major for the same infraction?

Scanton

Wearer of many hats
#1
Double Major?

I know you like the actual wording used in a nonconformity however I have just completed day 1 of a 3 day IATF16949 re-certification audit with a new auditor and it isn’t going well.

When reviewing one of the PPAP’s he spotted that a CC on the control plan was not also referenced on the FMEA, and as this had happened once before on an audit on the previous 3 year audit cycle he delightedly announced “well that’s a double Major, one for the infringement and one for the failure of your corrective action process”. Is that correct can he actually raise two Major nonconformities for the same infraction?

There are minors I will dispute. but I won’t bore you with those……………………….yet J

Your collective experience and wisdom would be massively appreciated at this point.
 
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Johnny Quality

Quite Involved in Discussions
#2
Scanton,

I believe your auditor has a point and I think it's even in the rules somewhere that a major has to be given if a minor comes up again. Whether there's a timeframe allowed I'm sorry but I don't know. If it's on the previous cycle that might exclude you but I don't know the rulings.

On the second major again I think he's right in giving you a non-conformance against your corrective action process. Whether it's a major...I'm not sure.

"Delightedly" announcing majors? He's not getting a bonus for each one is he?
 

AMIT BALLAL

Trusted Information Resource
#3
Two major NCs as per IATF rules if an NC is repeated from the previous audit.
One for repeat NC and second for the corrective actions not being effective.
 

Howard Atkins

Forum Administrator
Staff member
Admin
#4
It is not the same infraction
  1. Your corrective action process was ineffective
  2. previous minor again found
The first aspect is more worrying than the second

from the rules
5.11.3
The certification body shall verify the effective implementation of the identified corrective actions at the next audit {see section 5-2}. In cases where the accepted corrective action plan is found to be not effectively implemented, a new major nonconformity shall be issued against the corrective action process {see IATF 16949, section 10.2} and the previous minor nonconformity reissued as a major nonconfomiity-

Delightedly is off colour :uhoh:
 

Mike S.

Happy to be Alive
Trusted Information Resource
#5
First, while the regulations may require it, IMO it seems akin to "piling-on" to issue a double major for any repeat infraction.

Second, any auditor that "delights" in issuing NC's to a client, especially major NC's, is a jackass, IMO, and I'd ask that he not be sent back to my place after this audit is over. I have been warned by one highly experienced registrar auditor that he/she has 2 colleagues that delight in issuing majors, the one even openly bragging when he does so. They will not be auditing me if I can help it.
 

Howard Atkins

Forum Administrator
Staff member
Admin
#6
Second, any auditor that "delights" in issuing NC's to a client, especially major NC's, is a jackass, IMO, and I'd ask that he not be sent back to my place after this audit is over. I have been warned by one highly experienced registrar auditor that he/she has 2 colleagues that delight in issuing majors, the one even openly bragging when he does so. They will not be auditing me if I can help it.
With this there is no argument
Tell your CB that this is totally unacceptable behaviour and the auditor MUST be removed
 

Greg19

Starting to get Involved
#7
5.11.3 applies if this was a minor issued at your previous audit.

The certification body shall verify the effective implementation of the identified corrective actions at the next audit {see section 5-2}. In cases where the accepted corrective action plan is found to be not effectively implemented, a new major nonconformity shall be issued against the corrective action process {see IATF 16949, section 10.2} and the previous minor nonconformity reissued as a major nonconfomiity-

But you are writing "and as this had happened once before on an audit on the previous 3 year audit cycle"
Was the nc issued at PA-Final?
 

Scanton

Wearer of many hats
#8
Thank you everyone who replied, it has been most helpful.

Greg19 - The previous minor was raised at the last audit which was that last surveillance audit of the previous cycle, this current audit is the re-certification audit for the next cycle.
 

outdoorsNW

Quite Involved in Discussions
#9
Without know the full details, I think the auditor may jumping to the conclusion that the previous corrective action was ineffective. The same end result can have multiple root causes.

An example: In electronics, an open circuit can have multiple root causes. Most of the following examples have multiple causes if one dives deeper. An open could be a defect in the bare PCB (which also has many root causes). An open could be caused by damage from soldering the components, such as a lifted pad or pad dissolution. It could be damage from the depaneling process. A defective component can can be an open when tested. A component installed backwards can cause an open by allowing too much current to pass and burning out a trace during testing.

If you can show the root cause is significantly different, the NC for an ineffective corrective action process should be withdrawn. I recognize in the real world the NC probably will not be canceled; this is a flaw in how the auditing system works.
 

Greg19

Starting to get Involved
#10
Thank you everyone who replied, it has been most helpful.

Greg19 - The previous minor was raised at the last audit which was that last surveillance audit of the previous cycle, this current audit is the re-certification audit for the next cycle.

was worth a try :)

Hope the audit went well after all.
 
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