During Gage R&R, is calculation of ndc value required?

K

Kim Yong Kil

#1
Hello Cuve..
I have a question for Gage R&R...
In ISO/TS Audit, During the Gage R&R, If NDC(Number distinct categories) is not calculated and analysed for gage. Is it nonconformity?
I need your helps.....

Thanks..
 
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Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#2
Yong Kil said:
Hello Cuve..
I have a question for Gage R&R...
In ISO/TS Audit, During the Gage R&R, If NDC(Number distinct categories) is not calculated and analysed for gage. Is it nonconformity?
I need your helps.....

Thanks..
Calculation of NDC isn't required by the standard, so the only way it could be an issue is if you have a customer requirement or an internal requirement for it.
 

Miner

Forum Moderator
Staff member
Admin
#3
JSW05 said:
Calculation of NDC isn't required by the standard, so the only way it could be an issue is if you have a customer requirement or an internal requirement for it.
Agreed. ndc is one metric of many to assess the suitability of the measurement system. As long as you are using the metric(s) appropriate to the decision that you make, you should be fine.

For example, you could legitimately get into trouble if you were using P/T ratio to make a decision on whether the gage was acceptable for use in process control (i.e., SPC) because P/T ratio is used to assess suitability for product acceptance (inspection) purposes.
 

Caster

An Early Cover
Trusted Information Resource
#4
Look up, look wa-a-ay up

Yong Kil said:
Hello Cuve..
Yong Kil said:
I have a question for Gage R&R...
In ISO/TS Audit, During the Gage R&R, If NDC(Number distinct categories) is not calculated and analysed for gage. Is it nonconformity?
I need your helps.....Thanks..


Kim

Nonconformity - no? Needing more investigation, maybe.

Do people understand ndc? What are the results if they calculate it? How do they know this if they haven't calculated it?

Have they stopped looking if the GR&R is 20 to 30%, or did they do MSA. Bias Linearity, Stabillty.

The quote "Look up, look wa-a-ay up" comes from a childrens TV program in Canada from the 60s and 70s.

Don't let people lose sight of why they do things. Try to get them to "look up" from R&R requirements to really understand their measurement system.

http://archives.cbc.ca/days_to_remember/classic_7361_en.asp?prov=1-111-1288
 
K

Kim Yong Kil

#5
This finding was issued NCR by our CB auditor..

Thank you for your useful comments..
But,, I confuse this situation...
During the surveillance audit, a CB auditor issued NCR for this matter..
The CB Auditor said " Regard to MSA 3rd edition, NDC values not calcualted and analysed for vernier calipers... You must be considered NDC of gage..."
What can i do for this matter???

Thanks
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#6
Yong Kil said:
Thank you for your useful comments..
But,, I confuse this situation...
During the surveillance audit, a CB auditor issued NCR for this matter..
The CB Auditor said " Regard to MSA 3rd edition, NDC values not calcualted and analysed for vernier calipers... You must be considered NDC of gage..."
What can i do for this matter???

Thanks
The AIAG MSA manual is intended for reference; the customer and "the organization" set the actual requirements. The manual (page 77) gives "...a general rule of thumb..." in saying "...the number of distinct categories (ndc) the processs can be divided into...ought to be greater than or equal to 5."

A "general rule of thumb" is not a requirement, and "ought to be" is not the equivalent of "shall be." Unless there's a customer requirement for inclusion of NDC calculation, your auditor is out of bounds.
 

Miner

Forum Moderator
Staff member
Admin
#7
JSW05 said:
The AIAG MSA manual is intended for reference; the customer and "the organization" set the actual requirements. The manual (page 77) gives "...a general rule of thumb..." in saying "...the number of distinct categories (ndc) the processs can be divided into...ought to be greater than or equal to 5."

A "general rule of thumb" is not a requirement, and "ought to be" is not the equivalent of "shall be." Unless there's a customer requirement for inclusion of NDC calculation, your auditor is out of bounds.
I agree. ndc is a supplemental metric intended to clarify or provide additional insight into the %GRR. It is not mandatory unless you have a documented customer requirement for it.
 
K

Kim Yong Kil

#8
Thanks a lot...
I decided to change our CB....
Let me know recommended TS CB...

Thanks
 

antoine.dias

Quite Involved in Discussions
#9
ndc too low

When your ndc results are too low this can mean the following (amongst others) :

The samples you have taken do not represent the usual spread in your process. (It very often occurs people are taking 10 consecutive parts from the machine - which is very wrong for the study)

The second may be that your choice on measuring equipment was wrong. (It cannot recognise enough classes in the measuring results)

There may be several more reasons, but IMHO those are the most frequent.

In the direction of the " requirement " for ndc calculation :

In item 7.6.1 of ISO TS 16949 the following can be found:
Quote:
The analytical methods and acceptance criteria used shall conform to those in customer reference manuals on measurement systems analysis.
Other analytical methods and acceptance criteria may be used if approved by the customer.
Unquote

If the MSA manual 3rd edition is the reference manual for a customer of subject company, IMO the auditor has the right to write a non conformity.

Best regards,

Antoine
 
Last edited:

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#10
antoine.dias said:
If the MSA manual 3rd edition is the reference manual for a customer of subject company, IMO the auditor has the right to write a non conformity.
Antoine,

There is no requirement for calculation of ndc in the MSA manual, as I pointed out earlier. There is a "general rule of thumb."
 
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