Electronic Forms control - Making sure the most current version of a form was used

#1
The company I work for maintains all procedures and forms electronicallu as controlled pdf documents on the network. In the past if an group needed a form to document results they would go to the network and print that form for use. During a recent audit, a concern was raised about making sure the most current version of a form was used.

The company implemented a requirement that a log must be utilized by each department to document a sequential number assignment and the reason for issuing the form. This task is followed by stamping the sequential number on each page of the form.

Each week I have to issue multiple paged forms which can be very labor intensive.

My question is there a simplier way of demonstrating only the current version of the form is used? FYI forms all ahve effectivity dates. If so could you please share some recommendations that have stood the test of 3rd party regulators.

A Grief
 
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SteelMaiden

Super Moderator
Super Moderator
#2
Wow, this whole control thing seems to be coming round again. Our 14001 auditor asked us about using pdf's and said something to the effect of "you know that someone can save a copy to their own computer, then how do you control it to make sure they only use the current revision?"

I understand the need to use current forms, really, I do. But for crying out loud, we have trained our folks where to get the copy of the form they are going to need and it is their responsibility to use the right one. (the only one that would be available through our web). If someone were to save one to their own hard drive, and then use it after it was revised, it should be found when the form goes to the "owner" of the process or the person using/reviewing/storing the completed forms. It would only happen once. I told the auditor that I understood their concern, but they needed to take into account the competence shown by our employees, and I would be happy to agree with them if they could go through all of our records and find one that was obsoleted by a revision.:bonk:

Maybe some places have a problem? I don't know. I appreciate their bringing things to my attention, but if someone really wanted to "do something" they would find a way. The trick is to provide the training, and to ensure that everyone is commited to the program. If they are committed, they will want to do the right thing.

So, your question of ensuring only the current form is used? If people are filling out forms, it should be for some reason. If there is a reason to collect the data, someone should be reviewing the information. While you are at it, make sure the form is current. If the form is obsolete, find out why and fix the problem, probably through awareness and training?
 

CarolX

Super Moderator
Super Moderator
#3
agrief said:
The company implemented a requirement that a log must be utilized by each department to document a sequential number assignment and the reason for issuing the form. This task is followed by stamping the sequential number on each page of the form.

Each week I have to issue multiple paged forms which can be very labor intensive.
Do I understand you correctly, that each issued form is stamped with a sequential number and is logged? Wow, labor intensive. Do the forms really need serial numbers? If so, have them printed outside, and log the ranged issued each week.

We keep all our forms in .pdf on a network. Our procedures layout how they are created, approved, and placed there. This passed our 3rd party audit without issue.
 
B

bazzle - 2012

#4
I use a read only directory with word documents for forms and Procedures.
Company users can only then open the current form or Document as read only and have to save it as something else in their own log.
A log to us is a date saved or a number if required ie: Engineering Change Notice.
Users are "trained" during induction as to the requirement to use only these directories as only here are they current.
If someone needs to constantly use a form or procedure they are encouraged to make a "shortcut" to that Doc instead of to a directory where they may have a copy.

Seems to work OK for us.
Bazzle
 

SteelMaiden

Super Moderator
Super Moderator
#5
If it works for you, and you are not having trouble with "non-current" documents, there shouldn't be a problem. key word is shouldn't.
 

Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
#6
bazzle said:
I use a read only directory with word documents for forms and Procedures.
Company users can only then open the current form or Document as read only and have to save it as something else in their own log.
A log to us is a date saved or a number if required ie: Engineering Change Notice.
Users are "trained" during induction as to the requirement to use only these directories as only here are they current.
If someone needs to constantly use a form or procedure they are encouraged to make a "shortcut" to that Doc instead of to a directory where they may have a copy.

Seems to work OK for us.
Bazzle

Sounds short, simple, and sweet. Great!
 

Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
#7
SteelMaiden said:
Wow, this whole control thing seems to be coming round again. Our 14001 auditor asked us about using pdf's and said something to the effect of "you know that someone can save a copy to their own computer, then how do you control it to make sure they only use the current revision?"

I understand the need to use current forms, really, I do. But for crying out loud, we have trained our folks where to get the copy of the form they are going to need and it is their responsibility to use the right one. (the only one that would be available through our web). If someone were to save one to their own hard drive, and then use it after it was revised, it should be found when the form goes to the "owner" of the process or the person using/reviewing/storing the completed forms. It would only happen once. I told the auditor that I understood their concern, but they needed to take into account the competence shown by our employees, and I would be happy to agree with them if they could go through all of our records and find one that was obsoleted by a revision.:bonk:

Maybe some places have a problem? I don't know. I appreciate their bringing things to my attention, but if someone really wanted to "do something" they would find a way. The trick is to provide the training, and to ensure that everyone is commited to the program. If they are committed, they will want to do the right thing.

So, your question of ensuring only the current form is used? If people are filling out forms, it should be for some reason. If there is a reason to collect the data, someone should be reviewing the information. While you are at it, make sure the form is current. If the form is obsolete, find out why and fix the problem, probably through awareness and training?

What you describe makes sense to me. And if it works, the auditor should not have an issue. I have been known to question an auditee, as to why they think it will work. But you don't write a finding if the evidence shows it clearly is working, just because someone might potentially use a wrong form.

PS: Since water runs downhill effortlessly, I sometimes suggest making the correct way easier than the steps needed to do it the wrong way. Stacks the odds in favor of the right way.
 

SteelMaiden

Super Moderator
Super Moderator
#8
hjilling said:
PS: Since water runs downhill effortlessly, I sometimes suggest making the correct way easier than the steps needed to do it the wrong way. Stacks the odds in favor of the right way.
My point exactly, if you have the forms available already and they are easy to get to, who is going to bother finding it, renaming it to save it, shortcutting it or creating their own hyperlink from somewhere? It sounds like A Grief had a system that was working well for them, and then an auditor came in with findings that may not have had any merit, leaving him or her with a big mess. Simple is Good.
 
C

C Emmons

#9
We maintain all of our forms electronically - there is a small disclaimer printed at the bottom of each one that states" document users are responsible for ensuring current revision prior to use - our auditor simply questioned people about how do they know a document they printed is still current - they answer - I dont until I compare it to what is on the inranet - works for us and we dont have a problem....
 

Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
#10
SteelMaiden said:
...It sounds like A Grief had a system that was working well for them, and then an auditor came in with findings that may not have had any merit, leaving him or her with a big mess. Simple is Good.

We auditors have to be continually (continously, constantly :confused: ) ... cautious not to impose too much of our own influence on the systems we audit. We don't always have the best solution....
 
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